[Ian Larson]

Steve,

I dont think there is any debate on poa getting disease. It does. But so does bent. each get certain diseases more than the other in different regions and climates.

I want to make it clear to anyone following this thread that one size does not fit all. Steve and Jon are in Europe and theyre preaching Nitrogen and its effects with fusarium in poa greens.

Here in Southern California Ive never seen fusarium once. Never at Riviera and never at LACC. And both operations spoon feed the greens aiming at .10 lbs / 1000 of nitrogen on a biweekly basis. Nor has it come up as a serious issue with supers in the entire region.

Steve if we were to generalize and come to a semi-conclusion that if you have a 50 / 50 bent-poa mix and your fert program was down at 2 lbs. N per year and you still end up with that much fusarium.......I wouldnt conclude that it is only because of Nitrogen that causes and promotes fusarium. That amount of disease is unacceptable to me personally and for the clientele I deal with more importantly.

The last time I saw that much disease on a green was at my first job as an assistant super at a nicklaus course in northeast pennsylvania. We had 7 year old greens at the time, totally bentgrass. He also had the fertility down to 2 lbs a year. We constantly had a problem with dollar spot no matter what we sprayed. At one point we were down to a 10 day fungicide spray.....

.....funny thing is that the only thing that saved us was when we bumped up the Nitrogen input.



Also, the picture shows some spreader tracks in the dew. You obviously didnt mow as to try and not spread the mycellium even more and what did you spread on the greens when you woke up to that?

And being at 50 / 50 bent-poa but managing for bent, what are you doing to promote the bent? And is it working?

With promoting bent, are you on any program to kill off the poa chemically? And at what cost? And at what success rate? Is it worth it?

If you are not on any program to eradicate poa, are you not promoting it?

When you started at this course were the greens new 100% bent? If not what was the percentage of poa in the greens?


Im not saying Nitrogen is not a contributing factor to fusarium in your part of the world. How could I? But I do know from my experiences and my colleagues experiences that fusarium hasnt conclusively been attributed to high Nitrogen in my part of the world.


I think Torrey is also a testament to poa greens. The USGA recommended poa greens to a public city owned course for the US Open....

I mowed greens that whole week and was with the USGA officials as they are doing their daily monitering of green speeds and firmness data. The poa conversion from bent was great. And the greens were great. All the poa greens at any US Open have been great. Thats why you see US Open greens as poa. Thats no coincedence. And as far as Torrey, after the US Open is long and gone its still a city course that still has to live with poa greens. If poa was such a monster I dont think a city course on a city budget would want that burden, if it were a burden. Playability-wise and finacially.

I do think we will see our first US Open with bent greens at Olympic though.

[TEPaul]

I heard this was a really good thread.

I'm sorry to say I haven't yet read it except for the first post and just a few of the ones just after it. But I am going to read the whole thread tomorrow.

But one of the questions on the first post by Mr. Warren was---if Oakmont's greens are straight poa and they have the reputation for some of the best greens in the world, do they know something that the rest of the world of golf and agronomy doesn't know?

I wish the answer to that question was a simple one but it definitely isn't.

Oakmont does have one of the best supers in the business in John Zimmers but the fact is basically Pittsburgh really does have generally pretty cool nights in the summer and Oakmont certainly does have a very large maintenance budget and if any course anywhere is wanting to consider straight poa greens even remotely like Oakmont's they at least better have those 2-3 things that Oakmont has, FOR STARTERS!!!

I was out there, I think in late June with the Exec. Director of GAP and the PA GOLF Association (one guy) for a meeting with Oakmont for this USGA Architecture Archive, and since we both get up real early anyway we went out to the course around 6:30 am with a putter and some balls as the crew was cutting and rolling. We talked to them and putted and just looked at a few of those greens and I must say I've almost never seen anything like them. They really were as good as it can possibly get, anywhere, and at any time!

But that's Oakmont! If any club or course anywhere is even considering trying to replicate what they have and do, even a little bit, I suggest that club and course COMPLETELY familiarize themselves with Oakmont, what they do and where they are!

[TX Golf]

TEPaul,

Thanks for the response regarding the greens at Oakmont. I have always been curious because it always seems that our national championship (known for lightning fast greens) is always played on courses with Poa Annua. Another question about Oakmont. Do you have any idea what there maintenance budget actually is?? What does an extremely high budget really give you?? I would assume it is the extra labor that makes the largest difference but I really have no idea. What do they do with there extra $$$ that other well known courses don't do?? Thanks.

Robert

[TEPaul]

Robert:

I don't really know exactly what Oakmont's annual Operating or Capital budgets are although I do have a pretty good ballpark idea (and if I did know exactly I'm sure you realize I would both never say it on here and also why I'd never say it on here) but I don't think it's telling any secrets out of school to tell you it's huge as it goes in golf maintenance.

The crews on these big famous "championship" courses and famous old-line courses like PV are about 3-4 times the size, at least, of the mean club in America and that costs. Not just that but the two asst supers we met with out there that day on the course could probably do a better job on any golf course in America than about 89% of the supers out there right now. The only amelerioration to that is most of these young guys like those two are trained in big budget operations and they know how to spend it right generally.

There is one really good super in my area who has a huge budget who once told me he could basically deliver the same product even if he had to give back about $700,000 of his operating budget.

Maybe he could do that but I think even he knows that's an exaggeration and at least he had the good sense to add-----but would anyone really expect me to give it back. 

[TX Golf]

TEPaul,

Yea, I wasn't really thinking when I asked for an actual number regarding their operating budget and would never expect you to put those number out for us to see. All I was really interested in is how much larger than the normal course, which I got from your answer. I was very interested in the comment that the super you know made. I have always wondered at what point the budget just becomes unnecessary. Eventually you have all the pesticides, fertilizers, equipment, and man power a course could ever need. It seems that these top "championship" courses have found this equilibrium. Thanks for the response.

Robert

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

If you are a superintendent and you dont understand or dont agree with the fact that poa annua always has a higher shoot density than bentgrass and how that higher shoot density sits the ball up higher giving the ball a truer rule, Im afraid we are in completely different leagues.

Ian, I have never said as far as I remember that Poa is not the density of bentgrass or even denser. If you can find it here I will apologies but otherwise it would be nice if you would stop putting words into my mouth.

It is logical to me that the denser and more upright the growth habit of a grass combined with a thicker grassleaf will cause more resistance to the roll of the ball as it gets longer i.e. Bobbling and that a higher HOC gives a less smooth surface than a lower HOC within certain limits

Jon,

And again, you dont use plant growth regulators. I dont know how you could ever maintain poa annua greens without Primo and still come away with a great and true rolling green.

And here is the crux of the problem Ian. NO I AM NOT ALLOWED TO USE A PLANT GROWTH REGULATOR , so I ask you again, how would you manage poa without chemicals? I was hoping that with your obvious experience that I might learn a thing or two

Steve,

I dont think there is any debate on poa getting disease. It does. But so does bent. each get certain diseases more than the other in different regions and climates.

I want to make it clear to anyone following this thread that one size does not fit all. Steve and Jon are in Europe and theyre preaching Nitrogen and its effects with fusarium in poa greens.

Ian, I have never preached about Nitrogen or its effects with fusarium or have I

Im not saying Nitrogen is not a contributing factor to fusarium in your part of the world. How could I? But I do know from my experiences and my colleagues experiences that fusarium hasnt conclusively been attributed to high Nitrogen in my part of the world.

Ian, maybe that is because first (and this is just a guess because I have no working knowledge of your climate) the climate doesn't help fusarium develope and secondly if you are spoon feeding the greens then with your ability in greenkeeping there would never be to much N available.

I am not in disagreement with your position that Poa Annua can make a great putting surface, I just would not want to create a pure stand of any grass in my putting green sward

[Ian Larson]

TEPaul,

Oakmonts greens arent a crazy never before seen poa. It is actually a simple asnwer. Theyre just a perennial type poa that doesnt come to seed. The plant isnt using its energy up to support seed and seed production. Since its inception Oakmont has embraced and managed its poa greens never trying to regrass with the newest bents out there. Because of the that, its species of poa have done well adapting to its enviornment. Theyve allowed natural selection to occur and because of that the strongest have survived. Leaving them with a great stand of poa.

Oakmonts cultural practices arent over the top and top secret either. John IS one the best supers in the country having come up in the Latshaw family tree. John, as well as hundreds of other superintendents across the country, understand what the plant needs to make it as healthy as possible just so he can turn around and take it to the edge of death. And why does he do it? Playability. A super could never take his greens to the edge without knowing exactly what it needs to make it strong and healthy.

Oakmonts greens success start with plant nutrition. Im familiar with the program they are on and its nothing fancy that only "wealthy" operations can afford. Plant nutrition is so similar to human nutrition. Without a good diet immune systems are low, energy is low and you wouldnt be able to run the Boston Marathon. John Zimmers has those greens on a sound, efficient diet. And at the US Open last year. His greens ran the Boston Marathon twice that week. And still came back around to tell about it.

All of the methods and and cultural practices that I have been getting criticized for on this thread are the same things valued at Oakmont.

Also the comment you made about the super that would give back half his budget and still produce the same product.....

....yes he is being sarcastic. But at the same time hes also serious. Some may think that supers with big budgets have it so easy and can do anything they want. Which may be true to a point. But the point that he was probably making is that because he understands plant physiology, what it takes to manicure a green so its healthy and rolls true. He can take those same core principals and apply them to a course with half his budget, and still pull it off.


I love Oakmont because its a players course. All about the playability. And the first step to great playability is understanding the stress put on the plant to achieve it and developing a program to keep it healthy and strong.

[Ian Larson]

Jon,

Im not trying to put words in your mouth but it seems as soon as I make a statement thats in favor of poa you come right back in disagreement. I also may be forgeting who I am making statements to on here. I think Im confusing myself between you and Adrian so if any comments that dont make sense to you thats probably why and I apologize.

Ian,

why do think that the density of grass gives a better putting surface. I disagree as it also requires you to have a very low height of cut on the greens. This is fine in areas where you can cut low all of the year but where you can't then you are in for untrue greens in the winter time.

And I dont expect to use Primo because I am aware that you have restrictions in the UK. My point about Primo was that if you have poa greens and you dont use Primo, then you havent experienced the effects Primo will have and cant appreciate the poa as much as a super who does use Primo.

To answer a question about what would I do if I had poa greens but couldnt use Primo.....

First I would think about what Primo is doing physiologically in the plant and try to mimic that chemical reaction in another round a bout way. Primo is slowing down the cell elongation in the meristematic region near the crown.

And because of that I would never put any organic fertilizer down containing seaweed or kelp extracts which contain the naturally occurring hormones that promote cell elongation and division.

Then I would look at my nutrients being put down on the greens. They are all important but I would cut off phosphorus inputs and only use phosphite when in need of P2O5. I would also be pushing Potassium all the time. Keeping Calcium magnesium balanced. And incorporating silicon all the time. Nitrogen would also be spoon fed only as needed.

I would also look at mowing frequency. If the greens are naturally releasing Nitrogen due to thatch degradation I would look at mowing in the morning and in the late afternoon. If I were at a low budget course I would use myself and a rotation of all other annualy salaried staff to share in the late afternoon mowing everyday, and definetely friday through sunday. The higher mowing frequency and lower clipping yield will keep the greens smooth and more consistent.

I would also keep them between .90" and .125".

If I had a roller theyd be rolled all the time as well.

In relation to the silicon and calcium I would be grooming them as much as I could with the brooming, verticutting and topdressing to stand that leaf blade up and keep the ball sitting up nicely. There would never be a leaf blade laying over.

One way or another Id get it done.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian-  Your management ways might work where you are, they wont work here. Poa in the UK pretty much needs to go back up to 0.25" from about mid October - mid April. At that height, given its disease problems it can be a pretty crap surface. As a broad statement, In the UK its impossible to have great greens 365 days of the year if you play on them and you cant put leaves on the trees in the winter.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian, apology accepted. I am actually, as stated earlier in this thread working in Switzerland. GRs are available in the UK but not here in the Alps unless you're growing grapes(I wish to god they were).

I do all my bench settings in mm and not inches but looking at Adrians reply I think it is safe to say your setting are closer to 3mm than 5mm. At that rate here in Switzerland you would have alot of dead grass on the greens going into the spring.

It is an interesting read that you have given in your last post and I will look into it more closely to see what I can incorperate into management here. I am sorry if I appear to disagree with when you make a statement on poa annua, it is usually just a query as the best way to learn in greenkeeping is by hearing practical advice and experience of others such as yourself.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

I dont think there is any debate on poa getting disease. It does. But so does bent. each get certain diseases more than the other in different regions and climates.

I want to make it clear to anyone following this thread that one size does not fit all. Steve and Jon are in Europe and theyre preaching Nitrogen and its effects with fusarium in poa greens.

Here in Southern California Ive never seen fusarium once. Never at Riviera and never at LACC. And both operations spoon feed the greens aiming at .10 lbs / 1000 of nitrogen on a biweekly basis. Nor has it come up as a serious issue with supers in the entire region.

Steve if we were to generalize and come to a semi-conclusion that if you have a 50 / 50 bent-poa mix and your fert program was down at 2 lbs. N per year and you still end up with that much fusarium.......I wouldnt conclude that it is only because of Nitrogen that causes and promotes fusarium. That amount of disease is unacceptable to me personally and for the clientele I deal with more importantly.

The last time I saw that much disease on a green was at my first job as an assistant super at a nicklaus course in northeast pennsylvania. We had 7 year old greens at the time, totally bentgrass. He also had the fertility down to 2 lbs a year. We constantly had a problem with dollar spot no matter what we sprayed. At one point we were down to a 10 day fungicide spray.....

.....funny thing is that the only thing that saved us was when we bumped up the Nitrogen input.

Also, the picture shows some spreader tracks in the dew. You obviously didnt mow as to try and not spread the mycellium even more and what did you spread on the greens when you woke up to that?

And being at 50 / 50 bent-poa but managing for bent, what are you doing to promote the bent? And is it working?

With promoting bent, are you on any program to kill off the poa chemically? And at what cost? And at what success rate? Is it worth it?

If you are not on any program to eradicate poa, are you not promoting it?

When you started at this course were the greens new 100% bent? If not what was the percentage of poa in the greens?


Im not saying Nitrogen is not a contributing factor to fusarium in your part of the world. How could I? But I do know from my experiences and my colleagues experiences that fusarium hasnt conclusively been attributed to high Nitrogen in my part of the world.


I think Torrey is also a testament to poa greens. The USGA recommended poa greens to a public city owned course for the US Open....

I mowed greens that whole week and was with the USGA officials as they are doing their daily monitering of green speeds and firmness data. The poa conversion from bent was great. And the greens were great. All the poa greens at any US Open have been great. Thats why you see US Open greens as poa. Thats no coincedence. And as far as Torrey, after the US Open is long and gone its still a city course that still has to live with poa greens. If poa was such a monster I dont think a city course on a city budget would want that burden, if it were a burden. Playability-wise and finacially.

I do think we will see our first US Open with bent greens at Olympic though.

Just when I thought we had buried this thread it's back from the dead. I wish my Poa were that resilient.

So many questions.

In my experience, Poa is much more susceptible to diseases than is bentgrass. Not only in my experience, but there is a plethora of documented research saying so.

As bad as the Fusarium is in the photos, it could have been worse. To put it into context, we have two courses, so with practice greens and a nursery I'm managing 40 greens. Six of the greens were affected in that attack, to varying degrees. The photos show the worst damage on the worst affected green. I can only guess how bad it might have been had I pumped the turf up with N. (Another green, not 50 yards from that one, was completely unaffectd.)

The reason I took the photos then was because I was communicating with a pathologist from STRI, Dr. Ruth Mann, who was very helpful. The identification of the disease was never in doubt, but we couldn't figure out what to do about it, it was showing resistance to normal fungicide applications. In the end, I just kept blasting away with the 4-5 available chemicals and it eventually subsided.

The spreader tracks you see in the dew, (very observant, you really are a greenkeeper), was from the application of Scotts Step, a granular micro-nutrient package we were putting down to compensate for a manganese deficiency.

The bad thing is when you get that damage at the end of September, then there's not enough growth for it to recover, and you're looking at the scars until the following May. In this climate, the greens are open year round, except for the odd frost days. They are sand based, I hesitate to say USGA, and they are mowed at 3mm. (0.125 in.) year round as well. Members expect 10-11 feet even in January. Thank God for Primo.

No, I don't expect you will see much Fusarium in Los Angeles. I've noticed that the bentgrass here seems more susceptible to dollar spot than the Poa. But contrary to Fusarium, dollar spot is encouraged by low N, so it makes sense that it would clear up after you bumped the N up in Pennsylvania.

The greens here were already infested with Poa when I arrived, from 10% to 90%, depending.  At that time, they were about 10 years old. I don't actively promote either the bent or the Poa. I strive to provide the best playing surface on a day to day basis, and let nature take its course. Research and experience tell me I can't do anything to change the composition of the sward without a critical loss of putting quality for an extended period of time.

What I see is right now, at the end of summer, the greens look about 70% bentgrass, but by next March, they will be predominantly Poa; the dominant population shifts with the seasons.

[TEPaul]

Ian Larson:

That post #131 looks really good to me in a general sense.

Most of the reason I say that is you have to understand I'm no agronomist at all, not even close. All the basic ingredients and ramifications of agronomic management, even nitrogen, are sort of Greek to me.

But what I have been noticing over the years is success with greens and courses over time seems to be going to the supers who basically keep it simple even if their dealing basically with poa.

I really like what you say about basic nutrition like a diet for a human. Grass is a living thing too and I doubt it deals that well with any kind of management program if its basically artificial---chemical, and on a program of this fix and that fix at the opposite extreme, etc, etc. I've come to call that kind of management program  the "Great American Agronomic Emergency Ward."

I see supers like HVGC's Scott Anderson whose been on a basic organic, low water program for many years and he manages his multi-strain but basically poa greens by letting them do what he calls "harden off". He's also one really good soil expert who's into a natural soil mode.

I take that to mean basically a Darwinian process where the weak dies out and the strong takes over and survives and prospers under a long term management program that sort of lets the grass do its natural thing organically.

The Oakmont unique poa strain has to have developed that way over many many years and HVGC is probably the same even if multi-strain.

To me it's just commonsensical and it really is sort of Darwinian. I think that's the good new but I guess in this business the bad news is to get there anyone and everyone is just going to have to realize it can and does take time----lots and lots of time to get grass to that ideal point where it can do for itself much more naturally.

Maybe that simplistic, probably is, but in a general sense would you deny it?

Again, isn't the flip-side, the down-side that there are just too many micromanagers out there and with way too much artificial stuff? I get the feeling grass, a living thing, doesn't do that well with that kind of human and artificial micromanagement with all these chemicals that constantly whip it this way and then that way and on and on.

[Jeff Johnson]

Ian,
Why would you manage poa and bent the same?  They are two different grasses they should be managed different.  If you manage you bent like poa you will get poa.  If you manage for bent you will have bent.  It is not that difficult.  If you verticut and disturb the surface you will encourage poa.  Too much surface disruption encourages poa.  Take a look at STRI and their theory on surface disruption, it is very clear about the differences in the two grasses.  Additionally their fertility requirements are different.  If you have poa, yes you need to feed it, if you have bent, why would you feed a grass that have evolved with such little nutritional requirements?  In my opinion, when courses with bentgrass greens start getting poa it is because they are over managing their greens. 

Jeff Johnson 

[Ian Larson]

Jeff,

My management would be similar but different. The cultural practices would be the same with grooming but the variables would be with fert, water, fungicide.

Bentgrass requires verticutting. No matter what STRI says. If the only thing you ever do is mow, you will end up with "leafy" greens. The leaf blades will eventually start laying over here and there and slowly get worse. The ill effects of this are a green, even with a pure bentgrass green, that can be inconsistent and untrue with ball roll.

And consistency and trueness is what I personally am striving for in the end product. Screw greenspeed. I would rather putt on a green stimping at 8 feet that rolls true and consistent than a green thats stimping 12 feet thats bumpy and not true. And so would the members.

You have your right to your opinion but bent greens that start getting poa is not over management. Poa wants to naturally be on that green and its only a matter of time. Especially if you do nothing about it.

Lastly, if you think my management style is over managing or off based. Do some research on Paul Latshaw Jrs bentgrass greens at Muirfield Village where they have the Memorial Tournament every year. They are pure bentgrass and they were some of the best greens on the tour this year according to the pro's. Latshaw does everything to his greens that I do. (Or I should say that the other way around). He spoon feeds. He pays attention to soils. He aggressively grooms his greens. If you dont do these things you cant expect to have a high-end product. If your clientele doesnt expect to have high quality green surfaces then you shouldnt strive to have it and youll be able to get away without grooming.

[Ian Larson]

TEPaul,

Its for guys like yourself that Im being persistent on this thread. Guys that are not claiming to be educated on plant physiology and are most likely members at clubs that just want to be educated and learn about it. And this can be a great forum for communication and education especially for the guys who arent in the field and can take bits and pieces back to their greens committee meetings. Ive personally been in a bad situation where there was a complete lack of communication from on the golf course up to the clubs hierarchy. It became a huge political mess and if there were only good communication and some education, there never would have been a problem.


As for your last thread....

I have alot of respect for Scott Anderson at HVGC thats why I put up that video last week. I also like to be is organic as I can be. I actually order alot of my product from a company in Lancaster, Pennsylvania called "Organic Approach".

But lest face it, pretty much everything a superintendent does to maintain a green is unnatural. That grass naturally wants to grow at 12-18" and go to seed. And implementing any type of fert or cultural program is unnatural. Regardless of money, chemicals or cultural practices all greens are being artificially maintained. The only guys that come close to naturally maintaining them are the UK and European guys.

The most a super can do is while maintaining a course and his greens the way he should, he should also try to incorporate organic and biological practices before automatically buying hazardous synthetic compounds. Sometimes thats impossible but its part of the supers role to be a steward to the enviornment and use better management practices. Especially these days with the enviornment issue being so hot. The last thing the profession needs is one bad egg contaminating a water source or something and it gets alot of press.

[Ian Larson]

Adrian,

If its the poa that requires you to go all the way up to .250" in the winter. Why not get rid of the poa? .250" is the same height as my collars and approaches. I couldnt imagine having to putt on that.

And I disagree that my cultural practices wouldnt work over there. Because there are supers already doing what I talk about, as we speak, that have great greens. I know because they are personal friends of mine.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian, you cant keep Poa free greens in the UK for any length of time. Where are your friends with great greens in the UK?

[Ian Larson]

Adrian,

If they have no problem with me mentioning them and their respective clubs I will. I cant throw them under the bus without their permission.

Why dont you embrace the poa and allow natural selection to do its thing?

If the poa is naturally invading the greens time after time year after year and enough of it sticks around every year, just keep it. Farm it. Love it. Be the poa.

Do you have access to UK versions of Primo or Proxy?

If I were at a course in say, Nova Scotia, which could be the generally same climate as the UK. And poa was too much of a battle to keep out, I would promote it. If the members can accept the fact that they have to putt on greens cut at 1/4" then Im sure seeing some disease like Steve showed isnt gonna be a deal breaker. And I say promote it because with the climate there the poa isnt using so much of its energy to make it through the summer. It seems that the mild temps are ideal for poa and thats why you cant keep it away. If poa can survive at the more southern latitudes Im sure it can in the more northern ones just fine. Unless its Sweden or the Arctic.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian- Thats pretty much what we do in the UK.... live with it. We do have Primo, and we have used it a couple of times this year coupled with feeding but we dont really feed in the winter. Its clear that the Poa is wanting food wherby the Bent is healthy but you need to experience Fusarium to appreciate why we cant feed and promote the Poa.
We maybe only spray twice a year for disease and sometimes it may only be isolated greens, micro climates and diseases are prolific in the UK and its not uncommon for some greens to go without fungicidal treatments for years where others are constant hell.
BTW Poa does better than most grasses in Iceland.
Also I am not talking about creeping bentgrass here in the UK that is another set of problems. We use European Colonial bentgrasses which in fairness integrate reasonably well with the long term strains of poa.

[TX Golf]

After reading the "Maintenance Practice" thread I thought back to this thread that I started a few weeks ago regarding a certain question. It seems like this might be a stupid question, but I am not positive about the answer. Here it is.

I have read on this site many times that after seeding a green with Bent grass (in Northern California) it can usually last about 6-8 years before being taken over by Poa Annua. I know that time frame can be expanded due to rigorous maintenance. So here is my question. Why is it that it takes that long for the Poa to intrude. Isn't it just a matter of getting Poa seed on the Bent greens? What would prevent these seeds from being carried onto the greens within the first few weeks? Its not like the seeds are only brought in on shoes after five years. Just curious as to the delay before it takes over. Thanks again for all of the responses to the original question as well.

Robert

[Ian Larson]

Robert,

I bulldozed my old nursery at LACC last year and constructed four USGA greens that are being used as test plots for the newest bents coming out of the universities. A couple weeks after germination I was seeing poa infestation. But I controlled it and kept it out. If its not controlled it will infest the greens starting from day one and just increase exponentially.

I just returned from a trip to my parents house in Happy Valley Pa. On my way back to the Philly airport I stopped in at Bent Creek Country Club in Lancaster Pa. To visit the superintendent who is a good friend of mine, Jim Loke. When I arrived and waited for him in his office I noticed a framed article from "Golf Course News" on his office wall. The article was about what he has accomplished with keeping his bent greens poa free.

Bent Creek Country Club is approaching its 20th anniversery and Jim has been its only super. He came from Firestone and was there during construction and grew everything in. Those greens are his other children.

My point is, Jim Loke has kept his bent greens pure for almost twenty years. And that is no fluke. He hit the ground running starting from day one with those greens and keeping poa out. He never rested on his laurels and just let it happen. Hes an innovative guy thats motivated enough to fight it.

Im not saying that this case can be true all over the world or even norcal. But south central pennsylvania is no slouch. Hot and Humid summers and cold fall, winter and springs. Poa wants to be there.

As I was riding around the course one of his secrets was simply not to aerify while the poa is seeding. Jim aerifies in the middle of the summer. And there are many more practices that he does, and does not do to keep it out.

Thats why I have a hard time listening to "How poa automatically infests the green". In my opinion that if the super is savvy and motivated, poa can be beat.

If anything Jim Loke and his greens at Bent Creek are a testiment to that.

[Jon Wiggett]

Robert,

noone sows poa annua on their greens but it is a grass that always appears.  I have never understood this fetish about monoculture greens. If you sow one grass as a monoculture with the idea of keeping it that way but end up with another then maybe your original goal is wrong.

How does poa annua get into the sward? It is transported in by animals, people, machines, the wind to name but a few. If there is poa annua around naturally (in most cool season grass climates it is) then it is not realistically possible to keep it out. On the otherside why would you not want a certain % of the most adaptable, successful cool season grass there is? I don't favour a monocultur as it rarely works and although I try to keep the amount of poa annua in my sward down to a minimum I still desire some due to the diversity it brings.

Ian,

gee big turn around here from poa hugger to poa basher

[TX Golf]

Thanks guys..... a follow up question for you.

What is it that allows a super to keep it out at the beginning but not after a few years (besides the special occasions). Does the Poa adapt and develop a resistance to the maintenance practices over time??

[Ian Larson]

Jon,

Im a grass hugger, I love them all. Each one has its place in certain situations. If you look back to my earlier posts my stance was that if I adopted greens that were infested with poa from say 30 to 50 percent. I would promote the poa, and have great greens. If I adopted greens that were pure bent, I would fight the poa.


Robert,

If poa were to become immune it would become immune to chemical control, not cultural practices. Its not unheard of that a grass becomes immune to chemicals like herbicides or fungicides.

And its not that after a few years the super "just cant keep it out". Look at my post about Jim Loke at Bent Creek. His entire MO was to keep poa out and he shaped his program to do so from day one when the greens were new. If a super has new bent greens and they become infested with poa after a few years he....

1. Didnt stick with a strict and regimented program to keep the poa out.

2. Theres a point where if you try to eradicate poa when it gets up to 30 - 40 percent, he may lose his job because the greens will look half dead. At that point he is probably living with it. And IMHO the poa should be promoted.


Again, this is all about being smart about management. Its natural selection and survival of the fittest.

Poa costs money to maintain. And Bent costs money to keep poa out.

[JSPayne]

Robert,

Thought I'd throw in a couple comments towards answering your questions.

Regarding the notion of new bentgrass greens eventually being run over by Poa, Ian has a pretty substantial answer above. However, to be a bit more thorough I would add:

Poa is a very opportunistic plant. Which means that it will take hold whereever conditions readily allow it. Poa as a weed as we talk about it here in bentgrass greens, like any weed, will mostly come in where an open opportunity presents itself. As such, I firmly believe in a rather general but effective rule in integrated pest management "The best defense against pests is a healthy, dense stand of turfgrass." If your grass is healthy and dense, with no open opportunities for intrusion, Poa, or any weed, will be hard pressed to find a place to take hold.

This goes hand in hand with what Ian was mentioning about aerfication at the right time of year. Basically, anytime you open up wounds in your green (which is VERY often, since you must consider ball marks as wounds), you open your greens up to the chance for Poa to intrude. If you're going to create wounds, or know they will occur from golfers, you had to take measures to assist the bentgrass in combating the Poa as it tries to germinate in that wound. Supers often do this by (1) keeping the bentgrass as healthy as possible so it can "heal" naturally as rapidly as possible, (2) by monitoring for Poa and removing it by hand when the bentgrass is unable to compete or (3) using chemicals such as pre-emergents or selective herbicides to prevent, slow down, or kill newly germinating Poa.

And to try and shed some light on the last question you had, I can't speak from very much experience, as I've never grown in a course, but working with rennovation (similar concept of growing in SOME new grass, just not a whole course) and having spoken with grow-in supers, the difference in initial grow-in control and afterwards is golfers. It can be much easier to control your grass, environment and maintenance practices and regimines when there is no play to worry about. But maintaining that same level of dedication to control grows considerably when you have to work around play and time constraints and added unpredictable wear and tear by normal play.

Hope that all helps clear things up a bit more. I enjoy this discussion because I've always dealt with bent/poa combo greens up until my current job and it was always a struggle to try and keep both grasses happy and healthy together, as opposed to now, at a course that is currently 7 years old, with about 5-15% Poa in otherwise bentgrass greens, to try and fight that notion that Poa is on the brink of taking over and working fervently to hold it back and promote the great pure bentgrass greens that are the reputation of this course.

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