[Patrick_Mucci]

While playing Pacific Dunes, an on course dilema occured to me.

Which combination of green and tee sites would I prefer to play on #'s 9 and 10 ?

And how influenced would my decision be, by the direction and force of the wind ?

Lower green - Lower tee
Lower green - Upper tee
Upper green - Upper tee
Upper green - Lower tee

I concluded the following for MYSELF.

On # 9

I felt that the lower green provided a less risky drive and a second shot more sheltered from most winds, whereas the upper green tee shot was more demanding, with the second shot and putting being influenced to a greater degree by the wind.

On # 10

I felt that the Upper tee subjected the golfer to more buffeting by the wind, and the indecision that elevation differentials automatically create.

So, for me, the upper combination seemed the more demanding challenge, while the other combinations seemed more benign.

For me, I would rate them in order of challenge as follows.

Upper - Upper
Upper - Lower
Lower - Upper
Lower - Lower

What's your prefered combination, and why ?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I found the lower lower combo the best by far. I actually took Mike and Geoffrey down to the lower ten so they could play the hole from there too. The nine tee shot is not significantly different to either green site. The 2nd shot to the lower green is breathtakingly beautiful with all of Bandon Dunes in the distance. It sits naturally at the base of the dune with very nice vegitation for framing. I like the shot options better too. The upper 2nd is ok just not great. Yes it is harder but not better. 10 from the top is just another beautiful down hill par 3 to me. The bottom tee lets one feel the genuine power of the wind as it tunnels at you. You also have better shot options from below.  Naturally the elevation shortens the hole from the top. The wind is plenty real all the time. I like when the green and shots have some shelter from the storm. The more natural green sites with fewer of them totally exposed to the wind is one of the significant distinctions on why I prefer Pacific to Bandon Dunes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

I felt that the blind nature of the tee shot made the upper tee shot much more demanding.  Any ball hit right was not good, whereas there was about 60-100 yards of leeway for a drive to the lower green, and everything in the fairway funneled down the hill to the lower green.  A far easier tee shot and one that would benefit from the slope of the fairway.

The upper green target it also smaller, and blind if you hit your tee shot left.  Mis-hit second shots also fare far better to the lower green.

If you stand on # 10 tees, and evaluate the wind's effect on your tee shot from 360 degrees, the upper would seem far more difficult to gage then the lower, which will permit low, even mis-hit tee shots to end up on the green.

I'd be curious to know your normal ball flight, and what effect that trajectory and shape had on your choice.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I only played lower-lower in my two rounds, so I can't compare.  Lower on 9 had good run-up opportunity for a front pin placement even though it was pouring sideways rain the first round.

[GeoffreyC]

Pat

I like the upper green on #9 because of the effects of the wind at that location.

On #10, I much preferred the lower tee. I liked the extra distance, and I liked the angle better. A drop shot in that windy location from the other tee was really difficult and perhaps in some conditions even too wild. Although wet and windy when we played the upper tee it played just fine. I just prefer the lower for the stated reasons.

[Paul_Turner]

The lower 9th hole is more fun, because it's worth chancing a big hook to get close to the green.  

The upper is much tougher-easy to end up with a very difficult approach from pulled tee shot(approaching over that huge bunker),or a badly pushed shot down towards the 6th fairway.

Not sure about the 10th.  But the right, greenside dune comes into play more from the upper tee.

[THuckaby2]

Concur 100% with Paul Turner... that is exactly what I was trying to formulate into words... even the part about being unsure re #10...

TH

[Michael Dugger]

Mucci,

So you've now been there, but I've yet to see your post about what you thought. (hard to believe, really)  

Do you play Pac 9 times and Bandon 1, as was discussed here once before?

How do the courses compare to your beloved Atlantic??

I'm guessing you haven't posted yet because you're still working on your rough draft.  Magnum Opus, no doubt.

Interested in your comments about Pumpkin Ridge.  For once we agree.  Why didn't you like it???

[Michael Dugger]

Mucci,

So you've now been there, but I've yet to see your post about what you thought. (hard to believe, really)  

Do you play Pac 9 times and Bandon 1, as was discussed here once before?

How do the courses compare to your beloved Atlantic??

I'm guessing you haven't posted yet because you're still working on your rough draft.  Magnum Opus, no doubt.

Interested in your comments about Pumpkin Ridge.  For once we agree.  Why didn't you like it???

[ForkaB]

I vote for lower 9, back 10.  Upper 9 is just another long slog to a skyline green--much harder but far less interesting, and very much a much of a muchness for the rest of the course.  Lower nine has a hidden valley element to it that I like, and a more interesting green complex.  Front 10 is just a pitch and the hard kick left you get from the dune on the right can be equally achieved by skill (e.g. Slag Bandoon) or shankiness (yours truly).  At least from the back tee you have to hit the ball reasonably strraight.....

[THuckaby2]

Rich:

You've written some confusing things before, but this one might take the cake.  Given I very much value your take on golf courses though, will you humor me with an explanation?

"and very much a much of a muchness for the rest of the course"

What the heck does that mean?  Out of character with the rest of the course?

And what do you mean by front and back on 10?  There's a tee on top of a dune and a tee below the dune, each of which have multiple teeing grounds.  I assume Tee below  = front and tee above = back, but please confirm.

Assuming I have this all correct, I THINK I completely agree with your take... which happens so rarely, well... it's a very nice thing!

TH

[Peter_Herreid]

Mine would definitely be the lower-lower combination as a preference, because I am always looking to get the ball "on the ground" as quickly as possible on those two holes, and the lower-lower combination is more conducive to that approach...

In terms of what is more of a challenge to my particular shot style, there is no question the upper-upper combination is harder for me.  I've been places on #10 from that upper tee that no golfer was ever meant to be!

Is it true that the combinations go hand-in-hand, i.e. lower green with lower tee and upper green with upper tee?  I have never played them (>12 rounds) split....

[ForkaB]

Tom

"Much of  Muchness" means the same, in Scots.  Just like 9 and 10 at Pebble Beach or 2 and 6 at Dornoch....

My memories have it that both PD #10 tees are on a lower level, and that the one you use if playing the lower 9th is 200 yards while the one you play from the upper 9th is just 150 or so.  Have I been misinformed?

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Rich.  I gotta get more up on Scottish terms.

As for 10 PD, I remember a top tee and a bottom tee, with each having multiple teeing areas...

I too could have this totally wrong - it's been a few years since I've been there.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mdugger,

For me, deciding which course I would prefer to play on a given day, is more dependent upon my mood that day, rather than my preconceived ideas about either course.

I liked both courses a great deal for a variety of reasons.

I would be content to play either one, to the exclusion of all others, for the rest of my life.  Though I would opt for the Jim H caveat when subjected to severe weather conditions.

With respect to your question regarding Atlantic, I think the sites are dramatically different, and I think the permitting process was dramatically different.  At Atlantic, on the 13th hole, they were prohibited from coming within 200 feet or yards of a nice pond/lake.  How different would both Bandon and Pacific Dunes be if they couldn't come within 200 feet to 200 yards from the coastline ?  Or if they weren't allowed to come near any natural dunes, or if they couldn't cut trees or gorse  Surely, your question was in jest !

With respect to Pumpkin Ridge, I posted my comments on the Veni, Vidi, Veritas thread.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would think Tom Doak would chime in but the only reason that an upper tee exists is Mike Keiser wanted the tourists to take in the view and take pictures.  I don't think its any question that the lower tee is far more difficult than the upper tee.

I know Tom told me the story of why 2 greens exist for #9 but I can't remember the reason?

[Mike_Cirba]

I like both greensites on nine, and although I'm usually not a big fan of "alternate" greens, both offer a somewhat different strategy and shot requirement.  I guess if I had to pick, I'd say that the lower green is more fun, but the upper green more demanding because of its greater exposure to the wind.  

The lower green is more fun because of the increased temptation on the tee shot to cut off more of the steep, diagonal rise on the tee shot (which if you don't carry, you can shoot any number) and sling the ball well down the hill.  The approach is also "lovelier", and one can more easily play a low-runner in there.

On 10, I prefer the lower tee.  Depending on the season, one is either faced with more of a direct wind either to or fro, and the hole seems less a postcard opportunity than a serious challenge.  The top tee can be deceiving in a tough cross-wind from that elevation, but it can also be a relatively easy pitch without a lot of demand to a large green.  The lower tee seems more intentive on being a demanding golf hole, aesthetic considerations aside.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Don't you feel that the lower tee on # 10, and the flight of the ball from the lower tee are sheltered by the immense dune that forms the 9th fairway and green when winds are from a northerly direction (prevailing) ?  And sheltered by the immense dune to the immediate right of the 10th green ?

From the top tee, there is no shelter from the wind, from any direction.

The lower tee and hole seem protected by the dell they sit in.

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