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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2008, 04:05:59 PM »
David,
Are you thinking that all courses of that era were mismeasured?

Furthermore, how does this line of thinking advance the study of GCA?   It reminds me a bit of my Sunday school question, "How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?".   The answer now is as it was then - "Who cares..."

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2008, 04:18:38 PM »
I'm not looking at the 1924 aerial in GeoffShac's book, I'm looking at the 1930 aerial. There's a tee around the front of the front right greenside bunker. That area is no 415. There could be a tee behind the one I'm looking at that would be in the 450s but it looks like a tree on what looks like a tee. Although it's pretty far away in the 1924 aerial it does not look like a tree that size in that spot in 1924 and what appears to be a tree there in the 1930 aerial is too big to grow that much in six years not to mention the fact that I doubt they'd plant a tree there anyway. That dark spot could be some kind of anomolie that's dark. We do see those kinds of things on some aerials sometime. Are you trying to say this hole is off 10% in yardage from the reported tip tee from that time? If so, I don't agree with that at all. I think you just aren't picking up what may've been where the tip tee listed at 455 was.

"I am looking at the 1924 aerial and you must have miraculous eyesight if you can really make out a tee in the location you described in the photo from Geoff's fine book."

It doesn't really take good eyesight at all. It's more a matter of where to look and what to look for on some of these old aerials. Sometimes just a clear spot is enough while looking in the right place as it can get very amorphous looking for a distinction of a tee cut. Look around those aerials at tees that we know were there then and where and you can see the cut distinction can be hard to distinguish from the surrounding area. I believe it also really helps to know Merion well on the ground too. I certainly have been there and played it enough over the years and I think that kind of thing really helps in this kind of analysis.   
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 04:34:56 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2008, 04:38:44 PM »
Dan,

I explained the relevance a couple times above.   If you aren't interested in the topic, then I surely will not be offended if you tune out. 

TomPaul

I see what you are talking about in front of the bunker, and it could be a tee, but I am not as sure as you.    Surely someone must have a photo of 17 from that era where a tee is visible or not.   If it is a tee than the yardage was still off by 10-20 yards, minimum.     

Is there currently a tee rapping around the front of that bunker?

As for the supposed 450 yard tee, I dont see it.   

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2008, 05:08:50 PM »
The Lads at Cypress used fishing line to measure carry distance at #16. Not sure when they did that, but, I suppose it's something those landlocked Philly boys would never have considered. Well, maybe to gauge the quarry carry? How else would one measure that quarry carry distance. Not with a wheel, thats for sure.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2008, 07:35:28 PM »
David,

We are looking at the same location.

I am certain it is not an unmaintained mound because the terrain would drop off significantly if it were not being used for something...like a tee...all of the terrain around there, that is not a tee, is well lower than the tees and green level.

The overlay Bryan put up should make very clear that the artist missed the tee that was, at the time, the back tee.

Tell me, if you think the hole was 415 and not 455, how do you explain Ben Hogan hitting his approach after a driver from over 200 yards?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2008, 02:02:16 AM »
Perhaps it is the significant drop off.  It does not look anything like any of the tees in any of the other photos.   

As for Jones, perhaps his driver (if he hit driver) did not go nearly as far as his usual yardage because of the uphill nature of the drive.  That is part of Wilson's justification:  If it feels like 450, then why not list the yardage at 450? 

Just like Merion 10, where people think they are hitting 300 yard drives, not realizing the yardage is wrong and hole is shorter and more uphill than they think. 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2008, 04:18:04 AM »
David,

Quote
I understand Bryan's point and it is well taken, but in practice I don't think it holds.  So long as they were trying to measure along the ground, by the contour method, a 10% error seems entirely reasonable.   Have you ever used a measuring wheel?   They are notoriously inaccurate because they exaggerate the measurement every nook, cranny and bump they pass over, and also because the user must walk a straight line.  Another way to measure on the ground is by pacing, but this too is very inaccurate especially because of the tendency to shorten our gait when walking up or down hills.   If they were using surveying equipment, then they were not following Alan Wilson's described methodology.    The contour method is akin to measuring by laying a rope on the ground.  T   here is bound to be some slack.

We apparently:

a) do not know how they measured the 18th at Merion - by pacing it off; using a wheel; using a rope or fishing line, or even using a theodolite. 

b) also don't know where the 1930 tee was.

c) don't know if where the graphic artist put the starting point for Jones' shots that is accurately where the tee was.

We do know: 

a) that the 18th is 415 yards from where the graphic artist put the starting point for Jones' shots.  The 17th is incorrectly done, so the 18th may be too.

b) that the hole is 455 yards from the front of the current back tee beside the 17th green.

c) that contour distance measurement will not result in a 10% error over 450 yards, if it is competently done.

d) that you definitely need a remedial class in basic math and geometry.  ;D

In conclusion, we can draw no conclusion on your assertion that the 18th was mis-measured in 1930, or if it was, why it was.  I can conclude it wouldn't have been because of contour measurement, if that was what was used, assuming that the measurer was competent.

As to the Alan Wilson "methodology", I think you read too much into what was stated. See my highlights in red below.  He says that the contour approach is better, first because it's more "practical" and "easier" (i.e. they probably didn't have the tools or surveyors to do it in a straight line through the air), and secondly because it "gives a result almost identical with that of the air-line method" (Alan can skip the remedial math class  ;) )  So, he recommends the contour approach only "for the sake of practical convenience", but does suggest the use of the air-line approach where the contour requires it.  Perhaps, like across the quarry on the 18th.  :o


Quote
[italic]The question is constantly asked whether holes should be measured in an air-line or along the contour of the ground. For practical reasons the contour of the ground is usually the better method. In the first place it is much easier, and in most cases it gives a result almost identical with that of the air-line method. If the play is over rising ground followed by falling ground and then another rise, it is true that the contour method slightly increases the length, but as a large part of the play is uphill this seems entirely fair, because the hole plays long even as measured.   Of course, in certain exceptional cases the air-line method should be used. Let us take, for instance, a one-shot hole of, say, 160 yards in a direct line, played from a high tee over a deep ravine to a high green beyond. The air-line measurement would be 160 yards. If a contour measurement were used, following down into the ravine and up the other side, it might show a distance of 200 yards, which would be entirely misleading, as the contour of the ravine in no way enters into the shot. In general thenfor the sake of practical convenience, holes should be measured on the contour of the ground; but in the unusual case where the contour does not enter into or affect the play of the shot, the air-line method should be used.[/italic]
 
The article, authored by Alan D. Wilson,  may have drastically understated the impact of using the contour method on rolling terrain.   Given that Wilson was a long-time member of Merion and the brother of Hugh I. Wilson, who is credited with designing both Merion Courses, Merion most likely measured using this method.

You have a number of logical fallacies in the last paragraph above.  Alan didn't "drastically understate(d) the impact of using the contour method on rolling terrain". He's right and you're wrong.  Perhaps they used the contour method, where appropriate and also used the air-line method where  it was required.  You can't infer the specific from the general.

The defense rests.   

wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2008, 09:44:24 AM »
Brian,

Although I am certain your perspective and contributions are lost on David Moriarty, merely because they challenge is assertions and not on a basis of fact, I found your posts to be excellent as they were years ago on the original threads.  But here we are again trying to explain simple ideas and point out simple mistakes without any success.  At some point, it is time to let him go and see where his wanderings take him and us.  I hope he is able to fill in the gaps of our knowledge between 1909 and 1912.  It is evident that the primary material he claims to have discovered needs to be analyzed by a wider range of perspectives.

As for Jones, perhaps his driver (if he hit driver) did not go nearly as far as his usual yardage because of the uphill nature of the drive.  That is part of Wilson's justification:  If it feels like 450, then why not list the yardage at 450?

Does David know the amount of elevation change between the tee used in the 1930 Amateur and the edge of the quarry or the landing area?  For that matter, does David have any idea about the elevation change from the 10th tee used in the 1930 Amateur and the landing area?  How well does he understand the elevation changes anywhere on the golf course?  For those of us that do know these answers, his assertions make little sense.  Because he does not know the answers, he is free to continue to mistakenly analyze situations. 

Does anyone else feel that if anyone besides David said something like the above statement that David would attack such a statement and require definitive proof?  That sort of speculation is strange in the context that David put so much faith in the fact that Merion must have been measured according to Alan Wilson's method for the measurement of golf courses.  Yet now he speculates that Hugh Wilson may have marked the yardage based on how it played.  As several of us have correctly pointed out all along, he has no idea how the course was measured.  A club run by railroad executives with a civil engineer for the railroad on staff during construction should have some idea how to accurately measure a golf course.  Why would they overstate the yardage?  To fool those simple Philadelphians into thinking it was more of a championship course than it was?  Wouldn't Tillinghast, Marston, Travis, Travers and all the other outstanding champions that played the course realize it?  Wouldn't the participants in the 1916 Amateur wonder why a course that was allegedly a certain distance be so easy?   It wasn't at all easy and not one newspaper article noted any of the players saying the yardages were off by hundreds of yards.  Were there any yardage mistakes?  I think in measuring the 12th, there was.  Given the sharp turn of the hole, I don't know the path that was measured.  However, it seems to be off by enough to question any methodology.  But overall the measurements are reasonable and not off nearly to the degree David would have us believe.  Inconsistencies such as this are what baffles some of us. 

David's process for determining the position of the tee boxes at Merion is simplistic and very incomplete relative to the information available--more like guesses that fit his predeterminations.  Certainly a more thorough knowledge of the course would aid his analysis, but he was only there once.   His memory of the property is not accurate enough to assist him in a line of inquiry.  I have several questions that would help him in his quest to understand what he will not accept from others.  Yet I am not inclined to help him since he seems as much interested in learning the truth as he does in embarrassing others.  His is a confrontational rather than cooperative effort and it seems to bring out the base natures of very good people.  A remarkable, but worthless talent.

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2008, 09:58:16 AM »
"If it feels like 450, then why not list the yardage at 450?"


Excuse me?!?

Is that remark really made seriously? If so it could be one of the most boneheaded remarks ever seen on a fairly sophisticated golf architecture website. Talk about taking the "natural aspect" and mystery out of golf and the playing of the game!

"What is the actual yardage of this hole?" 

"Oh, who knows, it's just what the guy who measured it thinks it feels like."

 ::)  :P


This thread should get "locked"

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2008, 10:08:48 AM »
Shivas:

I say no way at all. This website cannot carry on with people saying things and suggesting many of the things David Moriarty constantly does on this website. Frankly, far too many of them are just too far-fetched in both fact and logic for most any of us to be asked to constantly deal with seriously all the time. Basically David is the most "snippable" guy I've ever seen on here and if some of us can't use humor with him and on him (and hopefully he with us and on us) then this website will die of boredom in a week.

The tragedy of the use of humor on here, at least as Dan Kelley sees it (and I couldn't agree with him more), is we are constantly asked or expected to use "smileys" with our humor just to let everyone know it isn't vitriol.

As Dan thinks, and as I agree, that's really sad.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 10:12:02 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2008, 10:19:33 AM »
Shivas,

If you keep trying that liberal, wimpy, pinko, peace-making stuff I'm going to punch you right in the head!!   >:(











 ;) ;D  (sorry...had to emoticon it, sad as it might be here. )   ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2008, 10:32:58 AM »
Shivas,

I'll send you a note.

btw, mine was "Miss Rostalski", who was otherwise known by a variety of harsh, but fitting nicknames.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2008, 10:55:38 AM »
"So what now?  My advice is to beat the living hell out of each other.  I love a good heavyweight fight.  I also like to watch a good car wreck....they're both great theatre."

An interesting choice of alternatives on your part there, Shiv, but I wouldn't exactly call beating the living hell out of one another or a good car wreck something that should pass for humor!  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2008, 11:10:23 AM »
"btw, mine was "Miss Rostalski", who was otherwise known by a variety of harsh, but fitting nicknames."

MikeC:

Mine was Miss Dull.

I'm absolutely serious about that--I swear to God her name really was Miss Dull.

Can you blame me for instinctively using humor? Plus when I was in the third grade there were some guys a couple of classes above me who were already into drinking Purple Passion down at the old beach/road track in Daytona in the middle of the night. One of them was Fireball's brother.

My sister wanted to go out with that guy---Tommy Roberts, but my mother absolutely forbade it. My sister Ellen snuck out at night one time and ran across the street and got in his souped-up 1950 Ford to take off for the beach/road track to drink some Purple Passion in the middle of the night.

My mother flew out of the house, got in her car and caught Ellen and Roberts about a mile down the road. I always thought it was pretty cool of my mother to be able to catch up with the great stocker Glenn "Fireball" Robert's brother and cut him off in about a mile. That had to take some pretty slick and accelerator-mashing driving!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2008, 11:34:34 AM »
As usual, we are arguing about what should be factual questions.  I see no need for this.
Where was the back tee in the 18th in 1930???
     --  I used the furthest back tee (not the line, Bryan) visible in the 1930 aerial.  415 yards.
     --  TEPaul thinks he sees a tee rapping around the front the front bunker on 17th:  435 yards.
     --  Jim thinks the tee might be the dark blob in line with between the bunkers:  450 yards.

Which is it?  Surely someone can offer more conclusive evidence of a different back tee than in the photo, if one exists.  If there was a tee back there, let's see the proof.

TEPaul, I ask you again:   Is their a tee wrapping around the front of that bunker today?  Anything close?

Also, I've asked this repeatedly:

Is there any proof that the back tee on 10 was there in 1930?? 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2008, 12:37:58 PM »
David Moriarty, I think the time has come for you to just come to Philadelphia and spend whatever time you think is necessary to do this research you're interested in yourself instead of asking us to do it for you, particularly as most of us here who know Merion so well don't really see the point in it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2008, 12:42:31 PM »
Is there anything written about the carry distance to simply get out of the quarry on #18? That might shed some light because from the 415 tee it is only 150 or so, which would not have been an issue for a US Amateur field, but the 455 or 460 tee would get some attention...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2008, 03:52:55 PM »
"If it feels like 450, then why not list the yardage at 450?"

Excuse me?!?

Is that remark really made seriously? If so it could be one of the most boneheaded remarks ever seen on a fairly sophisticated golf architecture website. Talk about taking the "natural aspect" and mystery out of golf and the playing of the game!

"What is the actual yardage of this hole?" 

"Oh, who knows, it's just what the guy who measured it thinks it feels like."

 ::)  :P


This thread should get "locked"

One of the most boneheaded remarks ever?  I agree that it is pretty boneheaded.   But it is not my notion, it is Alan Wilson's:

"If the play is over rising. ground followed by falling ground and then another rise, it is true that the contour method slightly increases the length, but as a large part of the play is uphill this seems entirely fair, because the hole plays long even as measured."

My sentence was merely paraphrasing Wilson, so you are calling him a bonehead, not me. 
___________________________

David Moriarty, I think the time has come for you to just come to Philadelphia and spend whatever time you think is necessary to do this research you're interested in yourself instead of asking us to do it for you, particularly as most of us here who know Merion so well don't really see the point in it.

This is a factual discussion.   If you and Wayne don't want to share even the simplest facts, then that is your prerogative.   But then please spare me the ridicule and condescension, as it serves no productive purpose.

The FACT IS, measuring from the back tee as shown in the 1930 aerial, the hole was around 415 yards.

If there is proof of another tee further back, then I will stand corrected.   But no such proof has been presented thus far.   
__________________
Jim,

It looks like it is about a 210 yard carry from the back portion of the current tee next to the bunkers, to the beginning of the fairway.   To put it in perspective, that is longer than the carry to green at Cypress Point Club, only at Merion there would have been no bail-out option.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2008, 06:32:01 PM »
As usual, we are arguing about what should be factual questions.  I see no need for this.
Where was the back tee in the 18th in 1930???
     --  I used the furthest back tee (not the line, Bryan) visible in the 1930 aerial.  415 yards. Are you referring to the aerial on page 1 of this thread?  The Jones' line appears to end in the middle of the circle tee at the left edge of the picture.  Are you seeing a tee further back than where the line terminates?
     --  TEPaul thinks he sees a tee rapping around the front the front bunker on 17th:  435 yards.
     --  Jim thinks the tee might be the dark blob in line with between the bunkers:  450 yards.

Which is it?  Surely someone can offer more conclusive evidence of a different back tee than in the photo, if one exists.  If there was a tee back there, let's see the proof.   David, you are the one making the claim of mis-measurement.  I think it's incumbent on you to provide more conclusive proof that there was no further back tee.  In the absence of further proof one way or another, looks like a stalemate to me.  The assertion of mis-measurement on this hole is unproven, so far.

TEPaul, I ask you again:   Is their a tee wrapping around the front of that bunker today?  Anything close?

Also, I've asked this repeatedly:

Is there any proof that the back tee on 10 was there in 1930?? 



wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2008, 08:11:11 PM »
Brian,

Although I am certain your perspective and contributions are lost on David Moriarty, merely because they challenge is assertions and not on a basis of fact, I found your posts to be excellent as they were years ago on the original threads.  But here we are again trying to explain simple ideas and point out simple mistakes without any success.  At some point, it is time to let him go and see where his wanderings take him and us.  I hope he is able to fill in the gaps of our knowledge between 1909 and 1912.  It is evident that the primary material he claims to have discovered needs to be analyzed by a wider range of perspectives.

As for Jones, perhaps his driver (if he hit driver) did not go nearly as far as his usual yardage because of the uphill nature of the drive.  That is part of Wilson's justification:  If it feels like 450, then why not list the yardage at 450?

Does David know the amount of elevation change between the tee used in the 1930 Amateur and the edge of the quarry or the landing area?  For that matter, does David have any idea about the elevation change from the 10th tee used in the 1930 Amateur and the landing area?  How well does he understand the elevation changes anywhere on the golf course?  For those of us that do know these answers, his assertions make little sense.  Because he does not know the answers, he is free to continue to mistakenly analyze situations. 

Does anyone else feel that if anyone besides David said something like the above statement that David would attack such a statement and require definitive proof?  That sort of speculation is strange in the context that David put so much faith in the fact that Merion must have been measured according to Alan Wilson's method for the measurement of golf courses.  Yet now he speculates that Hugh Wilson may have marked the yardage based on how it played.  As several of us have correctly pointed out all along, he has no idea how the course was measured.  A club run by railroad executives with a civil engineer for the railroad on staff during construction should have some idea how to accurately measure a golf course.  Why would they overstate the yardage?  To fool those simple Philadelphians into thinking it was more of a championship course than it was?  Wouldn't Tillinghast, Marston, Travis, Travers and all the other outstanding champions that played the course realize it?  Wouldn't the participants in the 1916 Amateur wonder why a course that was allegedly a certain distance be so easy?   It wasn't at all easy and not one newspaper article noted any of the players saying the yardages were off by hundreds of yards.  Were there any yardage mistakes?  I think in measuring the 12th, there was.  Given the sharp turn of the hole, I don't know the path that was measured.  However, it seems to be off by enough to question any methodology.  But overall the measurements are reasonable and not off nearly to the degree David would have us believe.  Inconsistencies such as this are what baffles some of us. 

David's process for determining the position of the tee boxes at Merion is simplistic and very incomplete relative to the information available--more like guesses that fit his predeterminations.  Certainly a more thorough knowledge of the course would aid his analysis, but he was only there once.   His memory of the property is not accurate enough to assist him in a line of inquiry.  I have several questions that would help him in his quest to understand what he will not accept from others.  Yet I am not inclined to help him since he seems as much interested in learning the truth as he does in embarrassing others.  His is a confrontational rather than cooperative effort and it seems to bring out the base natures of very good people.  A remarkable, but worthless talent.


Bump for Moriarty who continuously ignores that which he should consider.

TEPaul

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2008, 11:09:20 PM »
"As usual, we are arguing about what should be factual questions.  I see no need for this.
Where was the back tee in the 18th in 1930???
     --  I used the furthest back tee (not the line, Bryan) visible in the 1930 aerial.  415 yards.
     --  TEPaul thinks he sees a tee rapping around the front the front bunker on 17th:  435 yards.
     --  Jim thinks the tee might be the dark blob in line with between the bunkers:  450 yards.

Which is it?  Surely someone can offer more conclusive evidence of a different back tee than in the photo, if one exists.  If there was a tee back there, let's see the proof.

TEPaul, I ask you again:   Is their a tee wrapping around the front of that bunker today?  Anything close?

Also, I've asked this repeatedly:

Is there any proof that the back tee on 10 was there in 1930??"



David:

I'll tell you what, I could probably answer all those questions for you but if I did I suspect you'd simply ask me more endlessly or totally neglect or avoid anything I said.

Why don't you do all of us a favor and just stop this nonsense because if you want the kind of "facts" you seem to be ridiculously demanding from us it would definitely be best if you came to Philadelphia and sought them out yourself! 

I, for one, don't mind supplying information to anyone, even you, but I tend not to want to do it if there seems to be no point to it.  ;) 

« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 11:13:45 PM by TEPaul »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2008, 11:22:40 PM »
Just to add to the yardage confusion, I did read an article last year in either American Golfer or Golf Ill. about the course for a US Open and it included some things they were doing to set up the course. They were talking about using the very back of the back most tees and I believe I remember they created some temporary back tees to get it long enough for the pro's.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2008, 03:27:13 AM »
"As usual, we are arguing about what should be factual questions.  I see no need for this.
Where was the back tee in the 18th in 1930???
     --  I used the furthest back tee (not the line, Bryan) visible in the 1930 aerial.  415 yards.
     --  TEPaul thinks he sees a tee rapping around the front the front bunker on 17th:  435 yards.
     --  Jim thinks the tee might be the dark blob in line with between the bunkers:  450 yards.

Which is it?  Surely someone can offer more conclusive evidence of a different back tee than in the photo, if one exists.  If there was a tee back there, let's see the proof.

TEPaul, I ask you again:   Is their a tee wrapping around the front of that bunker today?  Anything close?

Also, I've asked this repeatedly:

Is there any proof that the back tee on 10 was there in 1930??"



David:

I'll tell you what, I could probably answer all those questions for you but if I did I suspect you'd simply ask me more endlessly or totally neglect or avoid anything I said.

Why don't you do all of us a favor and just stop this nonsense because if you want the kind of "facts" you seem to be ridiculously demanding from us it would definitely be best if you came to Philadelphia and sought them out yourself! 

I, for one, don't mind supplying information to anyone, even you, but I tend not to want to do it if there seems to be no point to it.  ;)


TEPaul.  I believe you may have missed by response above.   

This is a factual discussion.   If you and Wayne don't want to share even the simplest facts, then that is your prerogative.   But then please spare me the ridicule and condescension, as it serves no productive purpose.

The FACT IS, measuring from the back tee as shown in the 1930 aerial, the hole was around 415 yards.

If there is proof of another tee further back, then I will stand corrected.   But no such proof has been presented thus far.   

If you guys want to keep your knowledge to yourselves, so be it.   But then you've no part to play in what is entirely a factual disagreement.   


good luck.
_______________

Wayne, your post was about me, it wasnt to me.   But since you want a response . . .

The length of the 18th in 1930 is a question of fact, just is the length of the 10th. 

The FACT IS, measuring from the back teeshown in the 1930 aerial, the hole was around 415 yards.

NO PROOF has been presented that there was another tee further back. 

good luck.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2008, 08:04:30 AM »
David,

My post was less about you and more about your process and the curious lack of available information used.  I think you can separate the two.  However, I did note your confrontational attitude and condescending tone.  Sorry about that, I slipped a bit. 


How many tees existed on the 10th hole in 1924?  Where was the back tee relative to the property line?  Were any changes made to the tees for the 1930 Amateur?  How about the 1934 Open?  What about the same questions as regards the 18th hole?

Now, what source of information will, in conjunction with aerial photographs, answer these questions?  If you come to Philadelphia, I'll gladly show you all you need to know to answer your questions of fact, both on the ground and in the Archives.  However, you are resourceful, so I suspect you'll find out even if you don't visit as the sources of your missing information can be found in several locations outside Philadelphia.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mismeasuring Merion
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2008, 08:23:58 AM »
No need for me to be confrontational or condescending, especially about differences regarding verifiable fact.  I've reviewed my posts and frankly I do not see it at all.    Nonetheless I do apologize if I came off that way to you. 

As for the type of proof I am looking for with regard to past tees, any kind will do so long as speaks for itself without excessive the need for further speculation or subjectivity.

All we have thus far for the  10th are your assurances about the tee location in 1930 and not even the posters with experience on the course over the past 20 or 30 years entirely agree with you. 

As for the 18th, you have said that the tees from 1930 remain on the course, but I cannot even get confirmation that tee TEPaul thinks he sees in the 1930 aerial is still in existence, nor do I see convincing evidence of it in the aerial.   

As for 1934, I'd love to know what existed then, but unfortunately this doesnt speak to what was on the ground in 1930.

Surely as you say the information is readily available, which I why I am surprised it has not yet been forthcoming. 


David,

My post was less about you and more about your process and the curious lack of available information used.  I think you can separate the two.  However, I did note your confrontational attitude and condescending tone.  Sorry about that, I slipped a bit. 


How many tees existed on the 10th hole in 1924?  Where was the back tee relative to the property line?  Were any changes made to the tees for the 1930 Amateur?  How about the 1934 Open?  What about the same questions as regards the 18th hole?

Now, what source of information will, in conjunction with aerial photographs, answer these questions?  If you come to Philadelphia, I'll gladly show you all you need to know to answer your questions of fact, both on the ground and in the Archives.  However, you are resourceful, so I suspect you'll find out even if you don't visit as the sources of your missing information can be found in several locations outside Philadelphia.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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