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Jim Engh

Tommy your information is wrong
« on: December 12, 2007, 02:05:25 PM »
Tommy Naccarato

I understand that you do not like my work and I'm OK with that. In many ways I view that as a good thing. It is the free flow of opinions within this dicussion group that makes it what it is.

However, there is a difference between sharing an opinion and making 'purported' statements that affect someones livelihood. This is especially true when the statement is not of the truth.

You recently made a post, that has since been deleted, regarding the Creek Club at Reynolds Plantation. You stated that;

"Jim Engh has proportedly guaranteed a Best New Private"

I have never and will never, make such a brash statement about any of my projects. That is simply not my style.

You claim that your source for this statement is "the people at Reynolds Plantation". I would be very interested to know who "these people" are in order to clarify this matter.

I choose to take the high road on this matter and presume that you were given inaccurate information. Your assistance would be greatly apppreciated.

Jim      




     
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 03:20:41 PM by Jim Engh »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2007, 02:16:05 PM »
Hi Jim -

I missed your introduction to the site, so welcome. I hope you aren't shy about sharing your passion. I know the natural inclination is to be modest & try to not to look like you're using the site for promotion, but I hope for all of our sake you ignore that impulse! :)

The site always benefits through participation from architects and others with intimate knowledge of the industry.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2007, 02:45:36 PM »
Jim, First off, for me to qualify the quality of your work, I would have to play one of your courses, which I haven't.

Second, I wasn't the only one there when one of the people at Reynold's said this. Who it was? That was over a year ago, and unfortunately, I can't remember that persons name, rank or serial number who it was they told us this. But Jim, it owuld seem simply going out there and telling your client not to promote the courses as such, would be a more reliabble way.

With that, I wish I had a dollar for a dime everytime it has been discussed in matters both private and public, how you design for Golf Digest Panelists. Surely that is something which to take note. But to ascertain I'm out to ruin your career. Jim, Please. Give me more credit then that!

Jim, I have always had nothing but good regards to you and your personality, even though you and I have discussed-at length--during a wonderful night in Bandon's Bunker Bar the difference in our opinions in Golf Architecture. Realzing it's a great big world out there. My views are just diffrerent. Remeber our conversation about the use of pot bunkering form the images I've seen--only in pictures--of Sanctuary? You seemed back then to respect my views, as I did of yours, especially the next morning your views of cart paths--another subject which could be debated on till the end of time!

I found you to be of a great character and equally, as good of golfer. I just don't agree with the principles of what I've seen in both person (three holes at The Creek Club) and in photos. It's nothing personal, and I wish both you and Jay Flemma would understand this. IT'S NOTHING PERSONAL!

Jim, I do have to apologize as I have meant to call you and catch up talk more about principles and, unfortunately time hasn't been on my side as of late and hope to converse with you soon.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2007, 02:47:20 PM »
Oh, and Jim, GO FIGHT WIN!

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 03:03:21 PM »
With that, I wish I had a dollar for a dime everytime it has been discussed in matters both private and public, how you design for Golf Digest Panelists.

How does one do this?

Did Doak and Nicklaus do this at Sebonack? Fazio? C&C?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jay Flemma

Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 03:07:03 PM »
Oh, and Jim, GO FIGHT WIN!

Tommy Naccarato, if you think for one minute that I had anything to do with this, you're wrong.  Everyone else, this quote is a public slap at me because I invoked Trinity College's cheer to welcome Jim to the group on the Jim Engh thread.

As usual, Tommy is blaming everyone else for his problems but tommy.  Apparently now, Tommy getting called out for something he said is my fault too.  Unbelievable.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 03:20:00 PM by Jay Flemma »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 03:13:04 PM »
Oh, and Jim, GO FIGHT WIN!

...Everyone else, this quote is a public slap at me because I invoked Trinity College's cheer to welcome Jim to the group.
...

I'm not sure what kind of mind can make such a conclusion, but I will rule out a mathematical/logical one.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 03:19:54 PM »
I saw that post, and considered a retort at the time, not knowing the facts, but knowing Jim and being 99.99% sure that he wouldn't say such a thing.


Tommy, no where does Jim say you are trying to ruin his career in that post....he merely respectfully refutes the content of your post.  As to your assertion that you can't quantify the quality of his courses.....well, you were at Reynolds Plantation and toured it, and you also posted prictures of it as a "poster child" for what is wrong with modern golf design in a drainage thread not long ago.  So, that boat has sailed and no sense denying it now! ;)

Like Jim, I respect your right to disagree or prefer other styles.

Kirk,

I would say its hard to make comprehensive design decisions aimed at the raters of any magazine, and esp. GD, with its 800 panelists.  That said, they used to send us the comments from panelists in a little news letter and occaisionally I would pick up something to help.  One I recall is a comment that the course needed more of a distance mix in its par 3 holes. (I had purposely designed all par 3's at mid length for fun, but now vary them from 130-260 or more.)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 03:32:49 PM »
Jeff,
I'm only explaing this to Jim on-line the way it was explained to me by Ran. (who Jim complained to) ;)

As far as I know when I first signed on, this is a golf architecture discussion group. Certainly all of this is worthy of discussion drainage, principles, etc. Or have we changed? Certainly, and I have said this in a previous post, it took this much to get Jim Engh to participate, and for that, I'm thankful for. Jim is one of the most colorful, insightful and passionate characters I've come across in my travels and I enjoy discussion with him. Certianly this website can only benefit from his participation. Hopefully we all can, which I have no doubt.

Jim, GO FIGHT WIN! Go Trinity College Go Notre Dame! I hope we can all GO FIGHT WIN!

Kill Al Qaeda ! ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 03:45:21 PM »
Tommy,

Of course, I can only comment by what I see on line, and not based on any off line discussions.

I agree that anything architecturally related is fair game, and have engaged you as such on many occaions. :)

I commented on Jim's post because when I read the "guarantee" post of yours, it struck me as borderline fair and/or slander, simply because most in our profession would consider such a thing to be unethical and none of us needs unsubstantiated internet posts out there suggesting we act unethically.  That kind of comment really possibly could hurt a career, and needs to be avoided, or at least verified before posting, IMHO.

It's very possible that pro shop personell overheard discussions of some type regarding chances for Best New second or third hand. Like the old party game of whispering secrets around the table and having them come back to you totally altered, such claims are usually very wrong.

Back to the architecture discussion!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2007, 03:57:54 PM »
There are times, as in the case of this thread, that I almost wish real world architects didn't participate in this forum.

Then we could go back to being a bunch of golf dorks who talk shit with nothing but our opinions to back it up.

Somehow that seemed to work better, IMHO :-\

All this talk about how so and so will only help this board....so and so will bring a fresh perspective.

This is not addressed towards Jim Engh, necessarily, but the first thread he's started is refuting what someone else said!!!!

How about we get back to meat and potatoes, gentlemen?
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2007, 04:04:17 PM »
Tommy;  I hate to jump in to what is really a private matter but it is now being discussed in the open and really provides a lesson to us all.  Since we are friends I hope you'll accept my remarks in the spirit in which they are given.

Jim, who I have not met, had a single objection and request.  He did not object to your criticizing his work.  Rather he objected to your repeating a statement from a member that he had "guaranteed" a top 100 rating when he pitched a job.  He asked you to identify your source so that he might confront the individual who Jim states gave you false information.

You replied that you have no recollection of the name of your source.  Fair enough.  The other commentary about designing for raters etc. was really nonresponsive, and worse, appeared to be an attempt to justify the remark or at least to lessen its importance.

I guess the lesson I take from this exchange is that we all should be very careful before we repeat gossip about people, particularly here in a public forum when we are discussing individual's livelihoods and professional reputations.  Criticism of their work, their persona or anything else is fair game so long as we have actual knowledge about the statements or they are identified as our opinions.  But repeating gossip doesn't do any of us any good.  From a selfish perspective, I would rather read (or listen to) your analysis of a course than hear about what somebody else told you because I respect your opinion.  It gets better if someone else I respect challenges you and sparks fly.  That forces me to think.  None of that happens when we repeat second or third hand information.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2007, 04:08:41 PM »
Tommy - Jeff makes a good point about the negative versus positive nature of your posts. Go back and re-read your post archive and I think you will find (like I have) that there are more posts from you about what is WRONG with a course or the design of a hole than what is RIGHT.

You always drop the "Ran" bomb everytime someone calls you out... you wield Ran's name like it was some magic sword that will make everyone run for cover. Why don't you try to be more like your hero and take the high road in discussing courses? You are a moderator on this board... you should be leading these conversations in a positive manner, instead of bashing an architects style because you don't like it. Point out the positives of what you like about a particular course or hole design... show examples of what you think is good and explain WHY a certain feature or architect scores points with you.

Posting pictures of a course you have never played and criticizing the design and/or architect is counter-productive to this site and chases good people away who could be contributing to our understanding of their business. At least you had enough good sense to delete the thread.

Tommy, you are supposed to be a role model on this site. Do you feel you are one?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2007, 04:12:48 PM »
...Posting pictures of a course you have never played and criticizing the design and/or architect is counter-productive to this site ...

Dang,

I guess I'm going to have to burn my Confidential Guide.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 04:13:39 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 04:28:01 PM »
Michael,

I generally post as an enthusiast much like others here.  
Professionally, I'm only here out of some misguided notions of self defense and as an "internet control" agent for the ASGCA anyway. ;)

Of course, I would miss this place, but also be glad to be forced to leave if it were decided to ban gca's. I am pretty sure most other participating gca's will be glad to drop out if the crowd thought it better, too.

We would need special privelidges from Ran to come on in cases like this thread, though.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2007, 04:35:16 PM »
Garland:

I've heard from a few people recently who want to buy one of those books for Christmas, so instead of burning it, you are welcome to return it to me for a full refund of the initial purchase price.  :)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2007, 04:48:13 PM »
Now there's a salesman...

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2007, 04:59:57 PM »
Michael,

I generally post as an enthusiast much like others here.  
Professionally, I'm only here out of some misguided notions of self defense and as an "internet control" agent for the ASGCA anyway. ;)

Of course, I would miss this place, but also be glad to be forced to leave if it were decided to ban gca's. I am pretty sure most other participating gca's will be glad to drop out if the crowd thought it better, too.

We would need special privelidges from Ran to come on in cases like this thread, though.


Jeff,

Notice I did not say I am for that.  To be able to talk with you guys is a unique and special thrill.  

It's just that you guys are real life people in the business and I/we are not!

And sometimes it is a real pain in the ass to have to censor what you might say because of it.  Censorship is not in the spirit of "frank discussion."

Things have become uber political, in my opinion, at this stage of the game.  It use to be nobody gave a lick about gca.com.  Now they do, which is either great....or terrible...and I'm not sure which it is yet. :-\

Apparently we have a voice.  But the voice is being squeezed off if we are not allowed to continue to be frank.




   
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2007, 05:03:10 PM »

Isn't it possible that some of the Reynolds people decided for themselves that hiring Jim was a gurantee for best new?
And then they told Tommy what they thought they heard.

Now Tommy could have verified the fact with Jim since they are buds....

What I really want to know is if Jim Engh's new course that he mentioned on the Jim thread has no bunkers on the course or just one hole.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 05:06:19 PM »
Tommy - Jeff makes a good point about the negative versus positive nature of your posts. Go back and re-read your post archive and I think you will find (like I have) that there are more posts from you about what is WRONG with a course or the design of a hole than what is RIGHT.

This could simply be because it's often easier to see what's wrong versus what would be better, especially for us mere laypeople.

-----

Tommy's repeating gossip is may be questionable, but I guess it comes down to whether or not people trust him. It's up to each of us to place a value on what someone posts, if someone chooses to relate hearsay. I trust Tommy implicitly, though I will add that everyone takes away individual interpretations of the same event (anyone who's been in a meeting with multiple parties can verify this).

In this instance, I'd guess the person in question waaaaaaaaay overstated what Mr. Engh said (damn, MattSpeak just works so well sometimes :)). Jim probably said something like "This land could yield a top 100 course" and the person probably heard "I will build you a top 100 course" and then further related it as "I guarantee a top 100 course". That happens all the time. Who's at fault? Tommy? Jim Engh? The person relating the words?

Me, I'd say no one's at fault, that's simply the world we live in. People will make strong statements, and others will misinterpret/misquote them.

We're all big boys here, we should each be able to place the proper amount of value on such statements.

(Which is to say, for me personally, pretty much none at all. This isn't a reflection of Tommy, just the type of statement at hand.)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 05:07:24 PM »

Isn't it possible that some of the Reynolds people decided for themselves that hiring Jim was a gurantee for best new?
And then they told Tommy what they thought they heard.

Now Tommy could have verified the fact with Jim since they are buds....

What I really want to know is if Jim Engh's new course that he mentioned on the Jim thread has no bunkers on the course or just one hole.

Cheers

No fair posting a shorter, more concise, clearer version of what I'm trying to say while I'm rambling on, typing away. Please consult with me in the future before sharing my thoughts.

 :)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 05:08:09 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2007, 05:08:36 PM »
Very well stated, George.  

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2007, 05:13:27 PM »
Ouch gentlemen...this is not what I thought thsi site was all about.
Opinions are simply that, take them or leave them.
That been siad there are several on here who appear to like reading their own inputs and perhaps take thier opinions too seriously.
Personally..the opinions I value most highly are those from people in the field who make a living doing the work...I am but a spec who simply looks at what they have done. I see the finished product in  the aftermath of them dealing with all the egos, finance restrictions, enviromental lobbyists etc , in order to come up with the finished product.

Jeff et al..you guys are what makes the site have value..you are the guys in the battlefield, the rest of us are little more than glorified wannbes.

Happy Holidays to all on the site

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2007, 05:22:24 PM »
First - I trust Tommy at his word.

Second- one only needs to look at the marketing propaganda for Reynolds Plantation to see where this statement may have come from and who might have sain something like this - true or not.

http://www.reynoldsplantation.com/golf/courses/creek_club

"Reynolds Plantation's fifth golf masterpiece opened for member play on June 1, 2007. The Creek Course is Reynolds Plantation's first-ever member only course, and was designed by 2003 Golf Digest "Architect of the Year" Jim Engh. Featuring Engh's distinctive, rolling bunkers, exclusive Zoysia grass fairways and stunning home sites, The Creek Club continues the legacy of golfing excellence synonymous with the Reynolds name.

"When a golf course architect sits atop the charts for three years running, it's time to take notice, especially when his name isn't Tom Fazio. Since 2001 Jim Engh has designed a trio of Golf Digest's "America's Best New Courses,"(note -my bolding of this text GC) the most by any architect. His 2003 winner makes him the hottest designer and helped earn him the honor of being named Golf Digest's first "Architect of the Year." GOLF DIGEST, January 2004 issue
"In designing the fifth course at Reynolds Plantation, I got real lucky. There are only so many places left on earth that have a setting that's absolutely perfect." Jim Engh

http://www.privateclubs.com/ads/re/re_reynolds.htm

Rember - they are SELLING a product.  Real Estate and golf and in a tough market these days.

I don't know who said what and I don't really care especially in public but when you have marketing like this nothing that is said or done would surprise me.

This marketing rant is NOT limited to Reynolds Plantation so I am not singling out them or Jim.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tommy your information is wrong
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2007, 05:29:17 PM »
Jim, Congrats on the stunning home site designs.
Quote
Featuring Engh's distinctive, rolling bunkers, exclusive Zoysia grass fairways and stunning home sites,
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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