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T_Henningson

Hazeltine National
« on: August 04, 2002, 08:25:06 AM »
First off I must say that I am excited to have found this site, it will allow me to talk architecture, which I have a passion for.

Anyways, back to my post...what are your thoughts about the architecture of Hazeltine National, and how it has grown from a "glorified goat pasture" during the 1970 U.S. Open, to a highly respected championship-caliber golf course that even Dave Hill now appreciates. What was it about the 1970 course that was so awful, besides it being such a new course that it was not fully grown in? What were some of the architectural changes that were made before the 1991 US Open that were so successful?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2002, 10:33:20 AM »
I can't say much since I have no previous experience at Hazeltine.  I am looking forward to seeing it for the first time in person this month at some practice rounds at PGA.  But, perhaps as legend has it, taking the dog-legs out of some of RTJs original par 3s was an improvement.  ;) ::)

I must say, Dave Hills comments of how 'they took a perfectly good farm and ruined it', was one of the all time classic comments on GC architecture. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JayC

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2002, 11:58:43 AM »
Troy,
To learn more, try hngc.com
and click on THE COURSE for an article by Rees Jones
about the evolution of Hazeltine. ;)

RJ,
Any chance you'll be around for Sat/Sun?
Barring a strike (I wish they would just because baseball is
so screwed up :'(), I hear the Indians and Red Sox are
in town.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JayC

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2002, 12:01:02 PM »
Sorry.
Try www.hngc.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2002, 03:08:30 PM »
While the "cow pasture" quote is more famous, my favorite was supposedly uttered by Don January.  The problem, to answer your question, with the original design is that it was overreliant on doglegs.  Add to it a very nondescript setting - the Jonathan metropolis was not exactly bustling in the early 80s let alone the early 70s - and you had a course that lacked definition.  

As I understand it, Mr. January happened by Hazeltine before the Open to check out the course he'd heard so much about.  If Dan King were around he could pull out the quote for me from Lee Trevino.  Something like, "The hardest course in the world is Hazeltine in Chaska, Minnesota," spoken long before anyone else had heard of it.  Anyway, looking out at an open prairie, he inquired, "Where do I hit it?" when playing the first tee shot of the day.

"Aim at that cloud right there!" was the response from his caddy for the day.

I DON'T AIM AT CLOUDS!!

Regarding Hazeltine... it isn't a lot of fun to play in April.  A Minnesotan's game is obviously rusty and the course sits on the highest spot in Carver County.  Par is about 82 for a good player on a day in the 40s with substantial wind.

As more and more modern courses have been built it no longer stands out as ridiculously long for amateurs as it used to seem.  The changes that have been made are improvements and the course is now a terrific championship venue - worthy of the Ryder Cup it will host.  (Certainly better than several other RC sites.)

There are now fewer sharp doglegs.  As I remember, holes like 2, 6, and 10 now stand out for being the benders.  Before the straight holes would have been the exceptions.

I've told others on the board the course is probably a lot better than they think it is.  My personal favorite is not hole #16, but hole #10 with an overhead look at the same lake behind the green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2002, 04:45:54 PM »
I personally liked Hazeltine a lot.  I don't think it currently bears ANY resemblance to the "cow pasture" that Dave Hill encountered in the 1970 Open.

It will be a very good test for the big boys at this year's PGA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2002, 08:26:26 PM »
With "new blood", threads are dropping down the page like cupcakes into Anna Nicole Smith.  (and pizzas and chips and...)

It is customary that the site of Major Championships gets some discussion on the board, but perhaps this event will be different.  Anyhow, with Hazeltine already having played host to a U.S. Womens Open, U.S. Senior Open, NCAA Championship, and two U.S. Opens, I figured that a future site of two PGAs and a Ryder Cup may be of interest to some.

If not, it will fall back to page 3 in a matter of days.  But if you or anyone want to discuss the site of this year's last major, post notes here so we don't need to create new threads to support the discussion.

Personally, I'm dying to see the event and compare club sequences to the last Open.  Players were teeing up with 2-irons on #10 and #15 and laying up on #7.  Not some, but nearly ALL.  With advances in equipment is it possible to go at #7 and still hold the green?  How 'bout flying the bunkers to take a shorter route to #15?  With Open rough it wasn't worth the gamble.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek_L

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2002, 08:34:21 PM »
Tiger Woods and Mark O'Meara were in town today to play a practice round at Hazeltine.  Not a whole lot known at this town as it was kind of kept hush, hush.  It is funny, you know that prior to the British Open and the fall of the Tiger, the talk of the town in Minnesota was the Grand Slam coming to Hazeltine, sure it is still going to be exciting but it is crazy how one event changes everybody's demeanor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2002, 08:52:08 PM »
John --

Haven't been out there since the Open in '91. Will be out there dawn-to-dusk every day next week.

My understanding is that 15 has been considerably straightened since '91, to take right-OB out of the straight-tee-shot equation and to tempt the driver into their hands.

Troy --

The original Hazeltine was LOADED with severe doglegs, mostly now departed: Nos. 1, 2 (still a dogleg, but not nearly so severe), 5 (still a sharp dogleg, the last time I was out there), 6 (sweeping dogleg still, and a lovely hole) 7, 9, 10 (great hole), 15 (sharp-dogleg tee shot) and 18.

And the old No. 16 -- a super-long peak-to-peak par-3 guarded at greenside by a big tree, and which some wag described as the only dogleg par-3 in golf -- is gone.

And the greens were considerably flattened.

I'm no expert on golf architecture generally or Hazeltine specifically, but I'm not certain that the changes greatly improved the course. The new 16 is, I think, a terrific hole -- a fantastic test of one's nerves and skill. But in creating it, I think Hazeltine lost one of its very best holes when it jettisoned the old 17 (at the behest of PJ Boatwright, I've heard, who reportedly said Hazeltine would never get another Open so long as this hole remained). I wish they'd dumped the old 16, built the new 16, kept the old 17 (a 340-some-yard uphill dogleg-right that required a long iron to a narrow saddle fairway bordered by woods on both sides and a creek on the right side, followed by a short-iron over two small ponds to an elevated green), and made it a par-73. But Boatwright had his way.

Beyond the dumping of 17, the changes I really don't care for were taking the doglegs out of both 9 and 18, which now run perfectly parallel up the same slope to side-by-side greens. Boring. I'd have straightened No. 9 a bit and left 18 a big, sweeping, uphill dogleg-left -- a really manly hole.

And I think it's too bad that the straightening of 1 and 9 and 18 resulted in the disappearance of the Children's Course, which used to reside between 1 and 9.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

angie

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2002, 04:17:55 AM »
Quote
With "new blood", threads are dropping down the page like cupcakes into Anna Nicole Smith.  (and pizzas and chips and...)

It is customary that the site of Major Championships gets some discussion on the board, but perhaps this event will be different.  But if you or anyone want to discuss the site of this year's last major, post notes here so we don't need to create new threads to support the discussion.


 ???  anna nicole is a bufoon, true enuf ... but why shouldn't hazeltine have a thread? or did you mean anna nicole???  :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff McDowell

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2002, 06:32:51 AM »
Keep an eye out for the new bridge on 16 that crosses the creek. The club went to great pains to build a "replica" of famous bridge at The Old Course.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if it's good or bad.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2002, 09:41:07 AM »
Dan:

Right on with your take on the 9th and 18th holes at Hazeltine. They both cover the same ground and could have been altered for a bit of variety -- especially the closer!

The new 16th is a classic mid-length par-4. When the pin is in the far rear position and any mid-west summer wind is howling the boys will be adding a few numbers to their card they don't normally see. You can easily see a birdie / double-bogie swing on this hole!

The new 16th brings into play a wide range of numbers. There's really no automatic "safe" way to play the hole.

Hazeltine is a big size muscular course. Depending upon the depth of the rough I see the heavweights in contention. Unless the course is set-up like a bowling alley with hay on both sides it will require a good bit of distance to get within range for birdie opportunities. I give the course high marks for the manner in which tests modern players but does Hazeltine really have the innate character & charm other major venues possess? Can the course earn that by hosting a wide range of events in the future?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2002, 10:09:53 AM »

Quote
Dan:

Right on with your take on the 9th and 18th holes at Hazeltine. They both cover the same ground and could have been altered for a bit of variety -- especially the closer!

I give the course high marks for the manner in which tests modern players but does Hazeltine really have the innate character & charm other major venues possess? Can the course earn that by hosting a wide range of events in the future?

Regarding point #1:  What makes Hazeltine a bit of a bore, the long par 4s, actually is a strength in hosting an event.  I don't much care for 9 and 18 and have always called them "the same hole", but it is a great way to finish.  "All you need to do is make par and the Wannamaker Cup/Ryder Cup point is yours!"

Point #2:  Go forward 25 years and it will be an esteemed Championship venue.  How did Oakland Hills and Medinah get their reputations?  By hosting events on worthy courses.  Hazeltine - not my favorite course yet I always seem to need to defend it - is better than the average Ryder Cup site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2002, 11:14:22 AM »
John C:

The bar of quality Ryder Cup venues is really quite L-O-W! Many of the sites, particularly the European ones, have been chosen to enhance $$ value. The pedigree of the course is clearly not the first priority over there.

Clearly, Hazeltine National believes that if one hosts major events ergo you are a superb golf course. Sorry John -- don't buy it! Ditto the 9th and 18th as a "great way to finish." Tough holes no doubt -- but where's the unique aspects of high quality design? I don't see it but I could be blind.

I don't think much of Medinah and the clear reason why it continues to be on the short list is more closely related to its ability to logitisically handle major events and it's loctaed in the Chicago market! I see Oakland Hills / South as a better test of golf than either Hazeltine or Medinah.

Golf Digest rated Hazeltine 54th in the USA with its most recent top 100 listing and candidly I believe it earned that position because of exposure in hosting major events -- not because the golf course is such an awesome layout. A demanding course -- no doubt. A great one -- sorry, but no.

One last item -- I still love the new 16th and believe it's one of the best mid-length par-4's in the country. A superb "anything can happen" type hole. Too bad Hazeltine didn't have a few more of these in its arsenal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2002, 11:29:07 AM »
Matt --

You like the heavyweights next week?

I like the heavyweights every week!

But!

Note that, despite Hazeltine's rep (rap?) as a brutally long course, the heavyweights were not the champions (or the runners-up, either) at either the 1970 Open (Jacklin and Hill) or the 1991 Open (Stewart and Simpson).

I watched both of those tournaments from beginning to end. Jacklin won because he handled the wind (which was extremely nasty on Thursday, and pretty nasty on Friday) better than anyone else. Stewart won (I saw him play all 90 holes) because he must have made 25 putts of 8 to 15 feet -- plus that one bomb on 16. An unbelievable display of clutch putting.

I expected Tiger to win at Muirfield. Based on Hazeltine's history, I expected him to have trouble here.

Obviously, I've been wrong before!  :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2002, 12:05:50 PM »
As for Hazeltine's potential for "innate quality and charm":

Quality, yes. It's very nice land -- not spectacular, but pleasantly rolling Midwestern farmland. Some wide-open, some heavily treed. Little ponds here and there. A lake.

Charm, no -- unless you find pleasantly rolling Midwestern farmland and big skies charming. I happen to, but most probably don't.

Straightforwardness, not charm, is our strength here in the Upper Midwest -- and Hazeltine reflects that strength. Hazeltine can't be a Shinnecock Hills or a Brookline or a Merion, in terms of charm potential.

How much should charm count for, really? We can't all live in Scotland, or in Ireland, or in England, or in New England -- or even in New Jersey!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2002, 07:47:20 PM »
Got my GOLFWEEK today.  Klein gives a preview and Rude interviewed David Toms, Mike Schultz, and Lanny Wadkins.  Consensus is that Hazeltine doesn't "play long" because so much of the yardage is buried in unreachable par 5s.  The thought is that the leaderboard will more resemble Muirfield than Augusta or Bethpage.

It reminds me of Bellrive that was supposed to favor the long hitter and actually wound up having the opposite effect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2002, 09:56:14 PM »
So John. C.
You like Corey Pavin's chances?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2002, 03:21:49 AM »
Lynn:

No.  

Even though John Conley is correct in his assessment in that much of the yardage is "buried" in unreachable 5's, I think it still favors the long hitter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2002, 06:33:07 AM »
Matt:

I am well aware that the bar is low when talking Ryder Cup hosts.  And that is why I think it is logical to compare Hazeltine to other Ryder Cup hosts.  You do this any time I make a statement about a golf course relative to other golf courses.  Hazeltine is clearly one of the top 5% of courses in America, and you have a point of contention with whether it is in the top 0.5%.

The Golf Digest rating system favors courses that are famous and difficult.  As a result, many bash the results of the list.  One example is that Sand Hills - a terrific course in everyone's estimation - went DOWN last ranking and rests in the 40s somewhere.  Did it get that low because it isn't a perfect design?  No.  It got that low because it misses out on points for hosting championships.

Hazeltine is certainly a notch above Valhalla, and way better than the Belfry.  It is one of the best courses in the world built between 1940 and 1975.  It is a worthy championship venue, which you may not agree with if you have a different set of criteria in your mind for what is needed to host a major event.  (I've given up on the notion that the PGA or USGA will choose a site and limit the attendance in an effort to visit more Classic courses.)

Lynn:

Corey Pavin isn't my pick simply because his game is not on a par with the other top players of the world today.  I am very comfortable with players like David Toms, who is a statistically average length driver, yet somehow won on the longest course ever to host a Major last year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2002, 09:55:20 AM »
Corey could have trouble winning at Hazeltine......Particulalry if he isn't in the field ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2002, 10:05:00 PM »
I don't think you folks could believe the newscast I just saw.  It answers the question, "What do you get when you cross a state that will support anything with the state that leads the country every year in golf participation rate?"

Don Shelby talked about a whole mess of news events in rapid-fire dialog, so fast you'd have thought it was Telemundo.  I was out of the room, but Mom said they showed a "Countdown to Tiger's Arrival"!

Then a feature following Barry Deach, a great guy I knew in college, roving around picking up garbage from parking lots that will be used next week.  Starting tomorrow, his crew will be on "24/7 Alert" to make final preparations for the arrival of the golfers.

Next, Paul Douglas spent an inordinate (but probably not for the Twin Cities, where Doppler Radar was first used for local news) time on the weather, with particular attention to the forecast for tournament week.  You'll be sure to want to tune in tomorrow when he begins projecting wind - both velocity and direction - and indicates what effect it'll have on which holes.  Because, "More than the temperature or rain forecast, the wind will have the biggest effect on scores."  I assure you I am NOT making any of this up.

On to sports, where someone named "R J Fritz" quickly covered the AL Central leading Twins win over Boston to break their 4-game slide.  He looks a lot like a sportscaster they used to have named Ralph Jon Fritz.  I honestly cannot ever remember ol' CCO without him.  At the Buick, Tiger shot 63 to open up a 4 shot lead, "and you know it's not good for the other golfers that Tiger is warming up right before PGA week!"  

Following the sports news, I was fortunate enough to catch the 18th and final preview of one of the holes.  Mike Barge, teaching pro at Hazeltine and a mighty fine player in his own right, showed the viewer where second shots would be played from and emphasized the importance of hitting proper level on the 3-tier green.  For those who miss, Mike's sand game would certainly come in handy as he cozied up a shot to about 4" (with no camera tricks).

I told Mom I couldn't believe the incredible effort spent in covering the "news" of next week's PGA.  She told me it has been like this for two months!  

A newscast like no other.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2002, 10:17:25 PM »
John, you obviously have PGA-West Mississippi fever.   ;D

Since we will miss you at Stoneledge or ridge or whatever it's called on Sunday, perhaps we can meet up at Hazeltine Monday.  I'll hang around the putting green around noon.  You'll know me by the wide load sign I'll wear on my rear, and the Sand Hills or Wild Horse logo shirt I'll wear. I won't wear the cheesehead in the interest of decorum and will wear a Lawsonia hat instead.  8)

Then we can go to work and dissect the course design! :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2002, 10:06:18 PM »
Dick:

Played Stonehenge this AM in some pretty heady wind.  TOUGH!  I fly back Sunday PM so I'll miss you.  I was trying to visit my parents and avoid the PGA mess.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek_L

Re: Hazeltine National
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2002, 08:43:40 PM »
You know, living in Michigan for 25 years and now for two and a half in Minnesota I am wowed by how much the Minnesota media or public for that matter gets excited about golfing events.  Hazeltine and the PGA Championship has been the word for months and months, yeah I know it is a big deal being the final leg on the majors and the first time Tiger has played in a Minnesota Tournament, but coming from Michigan which has so many great courses and designers and hosted many great tournaments, I don't ever remember so much hype of The U.S. Open at Oakland Hills.  Maybe it's just me but has Minnesota found a new love?  Just some words for thought.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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