[Patrick_Mucci]

What courses are virtually unchanged since the day all eighteen holes were opened, and is this not the ultimate test of superlative architecture ?

Pine Valley comes to mind as fitting the above category.
TOC too ?
Seminole, NGLA, GCGC and others come close, but have had a substantive change or two.

What other courses qualify ?
Is that the ultimate test ?

[Ran Morrissett]

Two examples come to mind:

1. In terms of a course that has hosted countless championship events, the two courses at Royal Melbourne have resisted design change as well as any other. Yes, the 7th green West was changed by someone other than MacKenzie, Russell, or Morcom (I don't know who changed the 12th green W) but both of those modifications were EXCELLENT. And yes, the tee boxes have been stretched and the courses may not play as hot as they once did, but overall, the original architects would be pleased indeed as there is no sight/sign of tinkering from the numerous green committeees that have come and gone.

2. In terms of membership play, Holston Hills is about as pure a Ross course as it gets as they dodged the tree planting frenzy that compromised many of his other designs. Its fairway width, bunker placement, and greens are all as Ross designed, or at least that's my impression.

But to answer your question, I don't think it is the ultimate test as an ignorant committee can - and history has shown will -  wreck even the best of designs. Look at Riviera  :-/ where Thomas's work shouldn't be faulted for what an ignorant committee elects to do 50 years after his death.

[ChipOat]

Pat:

TOC had lots of changes made by Old Tom Morris and Jim Finegan's new book identifies the changes made to Pine Valley over the years.

Therefore, given that ALL the great courses have had changes made (some good, some bad, some permanent, some reworked), I would say the fairer question is what ROUTINGS have passed the test of time?  If the routings in question are defined as that which consensus opinion has established a course's greatness (e.g. Shinnecock by Flynn, Merion after 1923 or Boca Rio by Mucci), then I submit that just about every top 20 (50?) course that's pre-WWII would qualify - including NGLA, Seminole, Garden City and Merion.

IMO, even Augusta qualifies as the routing is unchanged from 1932 although there have certainly been major changes to the green complexes over the years.  Only #16 has been re-positioned so as to be unrecognizable from the original.

Hope I didn't step on your thread too badly, but I believe greatness MUST begin with a top-notch routing where the shot values already exist before the nuances are even conceived.  Bunkering, angled greens, strategic/penal - those are all necessary but they can't save a bad golf hole.

[Ed_Baker]

Sad but true Ran,

The courses Pat offered are also some of the best examples of benevolent dictatorships running the club over the years. I mean that in the form of the highest compliment. Those clubs found early success and maintained the same philosophies even when the individuals making the decisions changed the operating tenets stayed. The "torch passing" was carefully orchestrated and seemless to the membership because the torch was always passed to a hand picked succesor groomed for the job, with an understanding of how things are done. Period.

A recent example discussed on here not to long ago was the thread on Jackie Burke and Champions. Mr Burke runs that club perfectly with an iron hand, I'm sure that his knowledge and philosophies will be passed on to his hand picked successor.

The world at large views many of the clubs and courses that we revere on here as trite anachronisms,smacking of elitism and discriminatory practices, most are not politically correct and could care less. They remain, for all intents and purposes, mens golf clubs. That is their focus and identity. It is no accident that "the song remains the same" and is one of the primary reasons their golf courses remain essentially untouched and functional.

[Bob_Farrell]

Pat:

I'm not all that certain, but right here in NJ I think that both Plainfield (Ross) and Somerset Hills (Tillinghast) remain virtually untouched, at least for the over 30 years that I've played them. You may know better than I since I know you played in a lot more events than I have.

They're both terrific tracks, but my favorite is Plainfield. Brutal, but still my favorite. Too bad they backed out of the Senior Open bid. I would hhave liked to seen what the seniors would do there.

BF

[SPDB]

Newport CC, particularly it's irrigation capabilities.

[Chris_Clouser]

Crystal Downs is one that comes to mind.  I think they have only added two tees since the original design according to the club historian.  

[GeoffreyC]

Winged Foot might be the best example I know.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'll add Cypress Point, Pebble Beach and Fishers Island that I believe have not changed their original routing.  I include Pebble because the new 5th was part of the original routing.  Chicago GC also has the new/old Raynor routing.

Pat:  Ultimate test is not really clear.  Are we talking about the membership, board, or the qualities of the course being able to stand up to the test of time.

[CHrisB]

What about Prestwick?  Is the course that sits there today the original?  It certainly feels like stepping back in time when playing there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Farrell,

Plainfield has had some substantial changes made.

#'s 13, 14, and 15 are new, replacing several holes taken over for the practice facility.

I believe the original # 17 and # 18 were lost as well as a
par 3 on the back nine.

Plainfield experts, and Gil Hanse can provide more info.

I'm not familiar with any changes at Somerset, but would defer to the research experts.

Chipoat,

I'm curious, what substantive changes were made to the original course at Pine Valley.  The alternate greens at # 8 and # 9 didn't replace the prior greens, so I'm creating a caveat of sorts.

I think your ROUTING point is a good one, and would say perhaps a KEY point for the purpose of this thread.

[Tim Weiman]

ChrisB:

I'll be interested to see if someone challenges your suggestion of Prestwick based on the assumption that it is not suitable for "cahmpionship" golf.

For at least 98% of the golfers out there, I think it's wonderful.

[Ken_Cotner]

Just to be a wise***...

Sand Hills
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Dunes

KC, feeling a little contrite...

[mike_beene]

I don't believe the current Prestwick routing is the original, although the course has existed in its current form for a long time.It seems like the original course was 12 holes.I think 6,7,8,9 are "newer" additions.("newer" used very loosely)

[wsmorrison]

I played Prestwick last week where I had the good fortune to be paired with BCrosby as the first group out.  I think the 15th is the only original hole left (as told by my caddy).  

The 1st was originally 575 yards with the tee near the car park and the green where it is now on the current second hole.  This opener was a bear in the olden days and I am amazed that Young Tom Morris had a three, I think in an early Open.

[Steve Lapper]

Great architecture of any type will naturally satisfy the test of time. Be they structures or golf courses, all will deserve some tweaking over the years. Whether by individual or group, it is man's incessant desire to perfect that drive such interference or enhancement. With that said, I would submit that a vast majority of the foreign courses serve as prime examples of superlative architecture that remain virtually unchanged by modern hand. Of those that I am most familar with...the following few come to mind;

Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen (might just be the oldest of untouched next to the TOC)
Macharinish(sp?)
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush
Lahinch

Many others might well qualify for remaining virtually unchanged, old and worthy....but most (and i'm sure I've missed several) simply don't rise to the (very subjective) level of superlative architecture.

In the U.S. Pat's short list covers some of the more time-tested tracks. I might add Prairie Dunes if the eighteen may become divisible by two. Otherwise, it is a sad but fair statement to declare that most very solid architectual courses will not make it 20-30 years without major tinkering(for all sorts of reasons, many unrelated to the integrity of the shot value). I do believe that Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes will make this list should it be made in 2075.

Isn't it interesting how the game's technology and physical advancement has forced so many otherwise brilliant, virtually unchanged and time-aged courses into submission? Of all of Pat's or mine, only the TOC remains a Men's Pro Major Test and that seems due to the R & A's loyalty to its home.

A question for the knowledgable??? Has Olympic had any/many substantial changes....not just tweaks for the Open??

[Ralph Livingston]

Brora & Kilspindie
Not "great" courses but as original and fun as it gets.
R3

[Joel_Stewart]

I don't think Sand Hills will pass the test of time.   I played there recently and they are already talking about the natural progression of the course and how the wind will change it.   A member I talked with said he thought the first green will be gone in 10 years.  Does this qualify?

[Steve Lapper]

I don't think Sand Hills will pass the test of time.   I played there recently and they are already talking about the natural progression of the course and how the wind will change it.   A member I talked with said he thought the first green will be gone in 10 years.  Does this qualify?

Joel,

I agree that natural elements will dramatically change Sand Hills. Talking to several key people there, I've heard that they are planning to create several new types of green protection devices to secure the surfaces. At present, there are no plans to significantly alter anything or protect any other course feature (save the tee boxes), but let's not forget that C & C identified well over 100 holes inside the property and the costs of developing them will likely stay low.

Over time every place subject to severe weather/geological extremes (including places like Pebble Beach, Seminole, Riveria,etc... will change to some degree.

I've not heard anyone else at Sand Hills express worry over the 1st green.

[Mike Hendren]

wsmorrison,

I believe Young Tom's three was in fact a double-eagle since the first hole at that time was a par 6.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

I was referencing the quality of the architecture.
That is was so good that no one would dare alter it.

That despite, fads, green committees, architects, lack of money, too much money, etc.,etc., the brilliance of the architecture prevailed and is basically unchanged, and unlikely to be changed in the future.

[Sandy_Barrens_Jr.]

If all things go according to plan, (Which they don't) The courses, don't neccesarily remain the same, but just like a fine 1988 Chateau Montelena, they evolve perfectly.

Riviera could have been one of these. So could have Merion Golf Club The Old Course @ St. Andrews is another that is becoming altered in terms of maintenance and professional play.

[Chris Kane]

Ran,

I'm pretty sure that 7W at Royal Melbourne was designed by Ivo Whitton - I've tried to find information about the original hole, but havn't had any luck.

[ChipOat]

Sandy Barrens

I don't believe golf courses "evolve" very well, actually.  Bunkers break down, greens get smaller due to years of lax mowing, shot values change due to equipment "progress", labor saving watering systems completely alter the maintenance meld, TREES GROW IN AND ENCROACH (I don't like trees) and even harmless trees create problems with air circulation and light needed for good turf.

The best example I can think of to reverse this damage is National.  About 10 years ago, they began a program to remove all the underbrush that had grown up, prune back trees around tees, fairways and greens and re-claim the original putting surfaces.  What a difference!  Merion has done much here, too (see below) and I hear Garden City and Winged Foot have also done some good stuff along these lines.  I'm a fan of ANGC's ongoing work, as well.

Sorry, but I believe that man and Mother Nature conspire over time to cause golf courses to "over evolve".  Any long term plan should include a "face lift" every 20 years or so, IMO.

FYI, Merion has done some wonderful stuff over the last 3 years (and continues to do so) that has been overshadowed by the criticism of the bunkers' altered look.  Take it from me - Merion PLAYS way better than it did 10 years ago.

Pat Mucci:

As to Pine Valley, to my mind, new tee boxes that add 20-50 yards to a hole (especially at different angles) qualifies as "substantive change" to a hole's playability.  I would point to the "Open tees" at Shinnecock as the leading example of that.  Also, adding "alternate" greens that are used half the time and are, arguably, at least the equal of the original also qualifies.  Finally, if you remember PVGC from pre-1978, the greens were MUCH less treacherous when they were kept at a lower "Stimp".  Now the greens are so fast, it's scary.  If that ain't substantive change..........

However, the great routing endures.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I did provide a caveat relating to alternate greens, since the originals remain intact.

The lengthening of tees I regard as a form of elasticity which the architect usually provides for in his original design.

Different angles of attack created by new tees, which alter the play of the hole is another matter and a valid point.

I view Green speeds in the same way as fairway and rough heights, not as an architectual feature.

Overall, I think Pine Valley has retained its architecture with little change, certainly no substantive change.

Other than moving the 14th green at NGLA due to the access road, and the Moving of the 18th tee and green at Seminole, and the reconfiguration of the 12th green at GCGC,
I think those courses have remained essentially intact.

Again, I look at tee lengthening as an inherent design feature, a form of elasticity provided for by the original architect.

As to the others who mentioned Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills, I think it's a little early, by about five decades, to bring them into the mix.

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