[David Wigler]

I thought I posted this on Saturday - Very suspicious.

Is there a better four-hole finish then 15, 16, 17, 18 at Canterbury?  I recently played it and had forgotten how good it was.  15 is a phenomenal par four with one of the most interesting second shots I have ever played (If they only could still use the original tee box behind 14 green, I'll bet it would make every "Best 18 in America" list).  16 is a 621 yard par four that is a beast of a hole with the best green setting on the course.  17 is a 230-yard par 3 with phenomenal bunkering and maybe the most interesting green on the golf course.  There are so many ways to attack this hole.  18 is a 440 yard uphill par four with perfectly positioned fairway bunkers and another terrific green site.

The combination is scenic, heroic, strategic, and demanding.  They are great golf holes and great tests of golf.  Each could be a signature hole in its own right.  Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a stronger four-hole finish.

What does the tree house think?

[brad_miller]

What about Seminole, Merion,  PV, Shinny and Sand Hills and CPC for that matter even with 18.

[allysmith]

Best 4 hole finish has to be Augusta.
For sheer drama rather than pure architecture I dont think you can beat St.Andrews with the wind blowing.

[David Wigler]

What about Seminole, Merion,  PV, Shinny and Sand Hills and CPC for that matter even with 18.

Brad - Of those you list, I have only played Cypress.  I did not mention it because it did not have a par five and 18 is IMO a good hole (I know some think it is bad) but not great.  If CP had built the bridge, there would be no discussion.

[brad_miller]

David, I believe all but Sand Hills are in the WAtlas of Golf. Brad

[David Wigler]

Brad,

I have heard of the courses.    Have you played Canterbury?  How do their closing four holes compare?  I was amazed at how good Canterbury's close is.

[Matt_Ward]

David W:

Depends on how you define it -- are you saying "best" or "strongest."

If you are saying "best" it's hard to ignore Shinnecock. The 15th is a solid mid-length par-4, the 16th is a demanding three-shot par-5 even though it's only listed at 544 yards but the prevailing SW wind can be demanding as per the last round in the '95 Open. The 17th is a wonderful par-3 with two different tee boxes that can make the hole play very differently. The 18th hole is without question -- one of the finest in all of American golf.

If you are saying "strongest" I'd have to go with WF / West. Yes, all are par-4's but they have different demands and any player who can sustain himself through this gauntlet of difficulty has done well indeed!

The final four at Merion, Oakmont and Olympic (play 17th as a par-4!) can also be included in the mix as well in either category.

[brad_miller]

David, I have not played Canterbury , but your post said "Best" and in this regard how can one ignore some of the "best golf courses in the world" that also finish with a BANG, both in challenge and most important FUN. But then again maybe we talk, chat to much about all of these including NGLA.

[Matt_Ward]

David W:

Let me also mention in the two times I played Canterbury I enjoyed the layout and no doubt the finishing four holes are a superb mixture. It's just too bad that logistics keep the course from being able to host future major events.

Is the club interested in hosting or is that more of past memory than a future reality?

Thanks!

[Tim Weiman]

Canterbury's finish must rank with the best in the game, in my opinion.

When David Wigler and I played the course last week, I struggled to find the right word to sum up these holes. I kept coming back to "unpretentiuous".  You won't find beautiful seaside drama a la Cypress Point or Pebble Beach.  Nor will you find beautiful clubhouse views over looking the 18th green a la Shinnecock or Oakmont.  Finally, Canterbury really doesn't have "famous" finishing holes like those found at Merion or Pine Valley.

In boxing they often say "pound for pound".  If golf has an equivalent "shot for shot" quality, then the finish at Canterbury ranks right there with the more famous venues mentioned. #15 is a short par 4 with a dramatically elevated, multi tiered green with the appearance of a false front, all combining to make club selection for the approach very tricky. #16 is 611 yard par five that seems to go on forever when viewed from the tee.  Actually the furthest point you can see is the rise of a hill which is still about 100 yards from a delightful green setting.  Next you play a 230 yard slightly up hill par 3 with a small target given the length of shot required.  The home hole is an uphill 440 yard par four.

Regarding Canterbury as a whole, I’ve always felt it was a very solid golf course, though not exactly the most exciting venue you might visit.  The Canterbury experience is a bit like playing Pinehurst for the first time: the aesthetics of the course won’t impress.  If you come looking for the “wow” factor, you’ll go home disappointed.  While Pinehurst makes up for this with sophisticated green complexes, Canterbury really can’t, in my opinion.  

But, Canterbury is worthy of a special visit if you just like seeing land with lots of interesting movement and natural places to locate tees, landing areas and greens. The property is simply excellent for a golf course.  I’ll bet if you sent a topo to five or ten architects concealing the location, your phone would soon be ringing off the hook.  

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

My understanding is that Canterbury lost enough money on the last event they hosted that their interest in hosting another event is greatly diminshed.

Overall, Cleveland has several venues that might be a good fit for various amateur events, but when it comes to professional events, Firestone is still probably the best fit for this area.

[Keith_D.]

Tim Weiman is correct; Canterbury GC lost a bundle on the Senior Open they held several years ago. I don't think they are anxious to relive that scenario again.

Canterbury has very little wasted space and would have a hard time fitting in all of the corporate tents required to host another major event.

I was lucky enough to be a member at Canterbury for 12 years. The final four holes may not have the awe factor others are talking about, but it is sure easy to blow up a good round on ANY of the closing four.

Keith

[David Wigler]

Tim hit on something I missed - first impression.  I played Canterbury about five years ago.  I walked away impressed but certainly not overwhelmed.  I only ended up playing the course last week due to a logistics issue where I was originally scheduled to play.  This time, the course really impressed me.  I wonder if it was on Long Island instead of Cleveland or if the designer was Mackenzie instead of Fowler, that this course might be a top twenty instead of a top fifty.  The land and green sites really are that good.

[Will W]

don't you mean herbert strong?

[David Wigler]

Will W,

Good catch.  I got my Herbert's confused.  Herbert Fowler was Eastward Ho.  Herbert Strong was a little more prolific but does not change the point that I was getting at.  Would this course be more highly regarded if it was Mackenzie instead of Strong?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Tim
That finish at Canterbury is very strong - no pun intended. But I think i would characterize it as more one of the most difficult finishes than one of the best. Although I agree it is good.

I particularly like the 15th which one of the more unique holes in golf. The 16th is a very good hole with some interesting terrain, I seem to recall that it could loose a couple trees. The 17th is harder than hell. Unfortunatelt isn't it bordered by some split levels/ranches that effect some of the ambiance. And the 18th is a solid finisher. To be honest the course was better than I had been told and had anticipated, with the terrain very conducive to golf - nicely rolling without being hilly.

What little I know about Strong and based on a few old photos of the course - it may have been even more interesting way back when. Strong was a very eccentric architect to say the least and I believe the course has elimated a few of his eccentricities over the years. It appears they've added a little here and there also, isn't there was a water hazard and modernistic green complex on #9 or #10 (I forget the exact hole)that seems particularly out of place? I do know the par-3 over the pond is original. Another interesting Strong is Lake Forest in Hudson.

[Tim Weiman]

Tom MacWood:

In one sense Canterbury is going in the opposite direction of Oakmont, Merion and Winged Foot.  By that I mean the growth and encroachment of trees was striking after not seeing the course for five years.  I wonder if they will soon follow the lead of the more celebrated venues.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Canterbury holds a special meaning to me, having played there in the 1979 US Amateur.

The finishing holes are very good, but Winged Foot West may be more demanding.

Pine Tree's last 3 are pretty good, as are Seminole's and if I can expand the finish a little, Boca Rio's last 6 holes are pretty strong as well.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I can't argue your point about the finish of Winged Foot West being more demanding, but given the greater variety I think I prefer Canterbury.

[Leslie_Claytor]

I grew up down the street from Canterbury and have been around the track quite a few times.  In fact, I caddied in the 79' US AM as a ninth grader way back when.

I never found the 15th hole to be particularly great.  The terrain is not uncommon on Cleveland area courses with steep creek banks cut by glacial action into the shale.  Most players would lay up with 3 wood and face a blind shot uphill.  It's a good hole, but I always felt the finishing sequence started when you cross the road to the 16th tee.  Number eighteen at Shaker Hts. CC and a few holes at Highland Park are quite similar to the 15th at Canterbury.  You should try walking that slope packing doubles, not fun!

[David Wigler]

Lester,

Next time you are there, look at the original tee for 15.  It is directly behind 14 green.  You would have played the hole over 14 green.  I really like 15.  From the original tee, it would be one of the best holes in the country.  The orientation of the tee shot is terrific.

[Tim Weiman]

Leslie:

You may describe the terrain at Canterbury as not uncommon for Cleveland area courses, but I would still argue that it is damn good.  Can you provide any examples where the terrain is much better for a golf course?

As for #15, if you meant to suggest there is nothing special about the tee shot, I would agree. But, couldn't one make this claim about many great short par fours?  For example, I never heard anyone describe the tee shot on #8 at Pine Valley as being anything special.  The hole is really made by the demanding pitch shot in the green (now greens).

Also, it sounds like you don't like blindness and count this against Canterbury's 15th.  Can you share more of your thoughts on this?  Is the blindness a bad thing?

P.S. I wouldn't want to carry doubles up that hill either!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Wieman,

David's original post stated that he could not think of a
STRONGER finish, and I think Winged Foot's is STRONGER.

Interesting is another criteria.

[David Wigler]

Pat and Tim,

I am taking a lot of pleasure out of this post.  It seems that the tree house consensus is that Canterbury finishes as good as the recognized classics.  Is WF better, is PV better?  The fact that those are questions and debateable points highlights how good Canterbury's finish is.

I cannot believe I missed it on my first trip.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

David Wigler will have to clarify what he meant by "stronger".

I agree with your comment about Winged Foot West being more "demanding".  But, I would probably rate the finish at Canterbury as "better" due to the combination of variety and difficulty.

The bottom line: Canterbury ranks right there with the best in the American game.

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