[Ran Morrissett]

...is posted under Architecture Timeline and In My Opinion.

Somewhat like the Kings Course at Gleneagles, Banff Springs seems to have slid off the radar screen as being one of the great inland courses in world golf. And I'm not sure why.

The course has added some 300 yards in length since it was profiled in The World Atlas of Golf so this 7,000 yard plus course hasn't been completely run over by technology. Yes, the flow of the course has been hurt by the re-numbering of the holes (see Jeremy Glenn's In My Opinion piece on that subject as well) but Thompson's holes are still there and by and large in tact.

Ben Dewar, who runs Golf Travel Information, Inc. (web site: http://www.golfti.com ) has seen all of Thompson's finest courses in Canada and compares and contrasts the merits of Banff vs. Thompson's other masterpieces.

With Ben's help, work is already in progresss for GCA.com's 2003's west coast gathering - and it will be at Banff Springs, Jasper Park, Wolf Creek, and the soon to open Rod Whitman course outside of Edmonton.

Complete with seven photos that hint at the spectacular nature of Banff's setting, Ben's piece gives you an idea of the treat that is to come in our 2003 gathering.

Cheers,

[Paul Richards]

Ben writes a very fine article and it really makes me want to get to Banff.

[Boreum_Hill]

I've always dreamed of being pampered at that wonderful fortress/hotel, but the views alone would probably make any visit worthwhile.  Throw in 3 9s by Stanley Thompson....little slice of heaven, eh?

[Jeff Mingay]

Nice work, Ben  

Banff is indeed a magical place. But, as Ben points out, so much has been lost with the renumbering of the holes in 1992; more than most golfers would anticipate could be lost by doing so.

The original 1st tee, in the shadow of the hotel, was undoubtedly one of the greatest beginnings to a round in golf. And, as pointed out by Ben too, the final stretch of holes heading back toward the hotel provided an amazing climax to the round. It was a wonderful sequence, sadly lost.

Today, a round at Banff starts and finishes comparatively dull.

Again, this renumbering of the holes has much to do with the course losing the "spotlight", I think. It has taken away some of the magic of Banff.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ben
Wonderful job. Those interested in golf architecture who have not experience the work of Stanley Thompson should do so as soon as possible.

Any idea who or what influenced Thompson's designs?

[Jeff Mingay]

Tom,

To my knowledge, there's not that much in the way of writings by Thompson to indicate what his influences were.

Although, I do know he was a "fan" of the early works of Willie Park, Jr., who laid out many early courses in Canada, including Weston near Thompson's boyhood home in Toronto.

When Thompson was overseas during the First World War, he and one of his brothers reportedly made a special trip to the Heathlands to see Park, Jr.'s work at Sunningdale and Huntercombe.

Harry Colt was undoubtedly an influence on him as well.

Colt laid out Toronto Golf Club's new course in 1912 while young Stan was a caddie at the club, and also Hamilton's course (1914), where Thompson's older brother, Nicol, was the head professional for many, many years.

Thompson is said to have routed his courses by finding the ideal locations for par 3 holes first, in much the same fashion Colt is said to have.

I did an interview at Ben Dewar's website -- www.golftravelinformation.com -- earlier this year in which I talk a bit about this type of stuff, based on my research on Thompson and his architecture.

[Jeff Goldman]

Let me echo the praise for Mr. Dewar's article and the golf course despite the re-routing (I played it 21/2 times a couple of weeks ago).  Compare the Thompson 18 with the newer 9 if you want a comparison of a great architecture with not great.  Query about the old first hole (now 15):  The original first tee right was behind the old clubhouse (now a german restaraunt) and is now the forward tee, while a newer first tee, at least 25 feet higher, is much more striking and intimidating.  The old first tee is good (we played it one of the days), but it pales in comparison with the new one.  Does this put "traditionalists" in a bind because the new tee is so much better than the old one, or do they say that the new one fits the spirit of the hole given modern technology?

                             Jeff Goldman

[RJ_Daley]

Lucky me, I'll get to enjoy a round of golf with Ben this Friday at Lawsonia!

Ditto, a fine article on Banff and one to make me really try my best to get in on that GCA gathering in 2003.  AS mentioned in the article, the maintenance really compliments and accents the wonderful lines and shapes of Thompson's work.  Particularly the bunkers and rough interfaces.  In looking at the pictures I wonder if they have ever mowed the fairways up and down without striping.  What do folks think that fairways without striping would present for an alternative look?

Can Ben or Jeff comment on the turf species of fairways, are they K-blues, poa, or high fescue with rye content?  Also greens and surrounds if they know.  I ask because as Ben states, growing in reduced sunlight, and high altitude and so forth must indeed be a job for a very clever super.

[Jeff Goldman]

This is the wrong Jeff, but there was a very noticeable difference in the feel of the grass compared to the bent we play in the midwest.  The fairway may just have been mowed higher, but the grass seemed to the unitiated to be much "stiffer," "springy-er" or some such, and it seemed to be more difficult to hit down on the ball and take my usual runway divot.  Harder soil may also have had something to do with it, but I wouldn't know.  I did ask folks in the clubhouse at Banff what the grass was, and they seemed to indicate that it was some sort of bluegrass, which didn't sound really right.  Incidently, this effect was much less noticeable at Jasper Park.

[John Bernhardt]

That will be quite a gathering. And one I will attend. One must make reservations early for the season fills up fast. I think the drives will be long but scenic too. it is a haul from Banff to Jasper.

[Gene Greco]

I have fond and very vivid memories of my trip to Banff and would probably lean toward returning again with this group in 2003. My favorite course in Canada.

[Doug Wright]

Thanks for the great work Ben. As much as I love the Colorado Rockies (the mountains not the baseball team... ), there is something special about the Canadian Rockies. If you've not been there, you should visit Banff, Lake Louise (a lake not a golf course  ) and Jasper.

All The Best,

[Jeff Mingay]

Re: the grass types in the fairways at Banff, I don't know for sure, but presume it's a hodgepodge.

On the greens the grassing is probably a bit more uniform considering they were redone in recent years. Again, I don't know for sure though.

Ran,

A GCA outing in Alberta is a great idea.

Everyone could fly into Calgary and headed west one hour by car to Banff.

Then head three hours north along one of the world's most scenic highways to Jasper. From Jasper, it's about four hours west to Edmonton, where Blackhawk is located.

Blackhawk probably won't be open for play until at least June 2003, perhaps late May with limited plat. That's my guess. If the group wants to play Blackhawk, which I highly recommend, a Fall 2003 gathering would work best.

On the way back to Calgary from Edmonton, right beside the main highway, are Whitman's 27-holes at Wolf Creek. The original course was ranked 17th Best in Canada by SCORE Golf magazine this year. For the record, I have a feeling Blackhawk is the better course of the two.  

That's a nice trip, involving four very architecturally sound golf courses. And I might even be able to convince "The Whit" to participate somehow... but don't count on it  

[Jeff Mingay]

Whoops... I meant to say Edmonton is four hours or so EAST of Jasper.

[Dunlop_White]

Ben,

Excellent piece on Thompson's Banff. Thanks for this contribution!

I have had the itch to visit Canada for a while now. My sole Canadian vacation was at the Frontenac in Quebec City. I did not take my sticks!

I have always wanted to check out the Ross course at the Algonquin!!! Cape Breton, Jasper and Banff Springs, of course, have always been on my list.

As for other old Canadian Pacific Hotels,the Whistler and Montebello boast RTJ layouts??

And this website has introduced Capilano and St. Georges to me. As a matter of fact, as far as pictures go, Capilano and St. Georges may have leapfrogged some of the others in my estimation. Absolutely Beautiful!

Long Island, Monterey, England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada and now Oregon will all require many different road trips. Unfortunately, you will only be able to play the necessities, and while you are there, you will inevitably learn of a few hidden gems to bring you back for more.

Don't you love it?

Thanks again for your contribution!

Dunlop

[Jeff Mingay]

Dunlop,

The old Ross course at The Algonquin, St. Andrews-by-the-Sea, New Brunswick is gone now. Tom McBroom built a completely new 18-hole course over Ross' work a few years ago. There's no Ross left.

I did hear the course was but a "mail order" Ross design. There is suspicion Ross never visited the site. That's not to say it was no good, of course. But I never did see the course, so I can't comment on its quality.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

As I sit in Kohler, imagine my surprise to see this.

As far as the article, great thanks to Jeff Mingay and Ran for their help and the opportunity.

I am a huge lover of Thompson and anyone who knows his courses, will realize that this is not due to my Canadian heritage.

I have just played Capilano for the first time on Friday and that rounded out the five for me.  There is no doubt that Banff may be five, but that is like calling Crystal Downs the worst of Mackenzie's best work.

It will be a wonderful trip next year and I look forward to seeing more people than were at CBH, because it is so special.

We can work on the details next week.

Dunlop,
JM is right, no Ross at Algonquin (before McBroom got there) and none left now.  Go to Cape Breton instead.

I will try to answer questions as I have more time.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm curious how Thompson's work evloved, it seems like his very early designs were also pretty wild. Where did he get that flambouyant style (I wouldn't think Colt or Park) or did he just develop it on his own (with the help of a bottle)?

[Jeff Mingay]

Good question, Tom. I presume Thompson's "flamboyant" style was in his genes... unleashed with the help of a bottle perhaps!

Not many architects in the mid 1920s, besides Dr. MacKenzie, were doing the type of bunker work Thompson did at Jasper (1925) and Banff (1927), and a few years later, St. George's. Therefore, what could he have seen that would have been an influence on him in this regard? I don't know, but I can't think of anything.

Forget the bunkers though. I've always thought there's overemphasis on the brilliance Thompson's typical bunker style. More Thompson holes are "wild" and adventerous because of his outstanding use of native ground, than the aesthetic value of the bunkers -- 15 through 18 at Capilano come immediately to mind; as do 9, 13, 14 and 15 at Jasper; and the Cauldron Hole at Banff, of course. 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 14 and 15 at St. George's too; and, 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 13, 15, 16 and 18 at Highlands Links!  

All of the aforementioned holes would be eternally exciting to play if every bunker were filled in tomorrow.

Getting back to your original question, I have to say Thompson was a pioneer.

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