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Phil_the_Author

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2002, 08:53:32 AM »
Dear R J,

That has been my suggestion to all!

I have stated several times that I have spoken to him on "more than several occasions".

I have even had the privilege to have been interviewed on his program about my book "Golf for the People: Bethpage and the Black", published last May right before the Open.

As I have previously stated, I have found him to be a man of honor & dignity.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe_Hatley

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2002, 09:08:26 AM »
Phil,

I don't want to sound disrespectful and I am NOT questioning your integrity or that of the author, but the article sounds an awful lot like "The Curious Story of Sidd Finch."  There's certainly room in golf literature for satire; the article sounds an awful lot like someone's attempt to poke some fun at the effort by seemingly every archie out there to create an authentic "links."

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2002, 10:18:15 AM »
Phil -

I guess we're different that way - I react to pretty much every story with skepticism. Doesn't mean that I'm bitter or cynical, just that I don't accept everything without looking into it first. I will definitely try to contact the author/magazine.

Sounds like we need to get Scott Burroughs to start looking over the Georgia coastline. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil_the_Author

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2002, 10:23:01 AM »
Dear R J,

First of, to quote an oft-used phrase, my Dad is Mr. Young, please call me Phil.

I see that you read the first paragraph from my book. If you go to paragraph two you will see the following:

   "There are many legends about where golf was first played in America, and this is but one. That this be true is only proper considering what the future would hold for this same ground. The August and September 1935 issues of the Farmingdale Post of Farmingdale, New York, would report it this way, "...They chose an apt place for their game, for 250 years later what probably are the greatest courses in America were laid out on the same spot, and the Bethpage State Park came into being."

As you can see I only stated my WISH that this be true, not that it was, citing it as one of "...many legends about where golf was first played in America..."

By the way, you can find these issues archived at Hofstra Ubiversity at the Long Island Studies Institute in Hempstead, New York. I spent many hours there researching the true backgrounds of the community, village and park that all have come to bear the name of Bethpage.

It was here that I found the newspaper accounts of ALL of the exhibition matches that Sam Snead played on the Black, not one of which he walked off.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2002, 11:00:16 AM »
Re:  Dean Creek

The article that Phil fax'd me is long, and very well written.  You wouldn't consider it "advertorial" like you would consider most of the content of LINKS Magazine.

It is (almost  ;) ) too well written, in a Sidd Finch sort of way.  Another poster already mentioned Finch and I had previously made the same reference in a private message to someone on the board.

I'll let you guys form your own opinion.  Here is the final passage:

Third, I honestly can't tell you where it is!  When I was leaving, I asked Tommy how to get back to the interstate.  To the best of my recollection, he said to take a left out of the property; keep taking lefts whenever I could (there were five or six lefts, one of which was a dirt road) until I came to a light; then turn right until it dead-ends into Highway 83.  Turn left and go about 10 miles and follow the signs to the interstate.  Somehow, I managed to get back to civilization about 40 minutes later, still having no idea where I had been.

Sine then, I have been back to the coast twice.  Both times I spent at least an hour trying to find Dean Creek again, but I haven't been successful.  Also, the Georgia DOT has changed all the exit numbers, so I'm not even sure which exit it is off I-95.  Someday, I hope to find it again, but if I don't, I will always remember the experience I had last fall.

If you can find it, you can play it.  Tommy told me that I was only the 87th person to play Dean Creek Golf Club.  You could be number 88.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

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Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2002, 11:37:56 AM »
I was intrigued by this topic and decided to do a little quick research since the Golden Isles are one of my favorite places to visit...

A) The real Dean Creek, as best as I can tell (I certainly didn't have exhaustive resources to draw upon) flows from North to South on Sapelo Island, a protected barrier island in the middle of Ga's coast.  There may be other creeks of the same name in the vicinity but I found no record of any.

B) There is no golf course on or near the Dean Creek on Sapelo Island, it is protected land near the University of Ga's marine research facility.

C)  The first post about the course mentions that it is located on land previously owned by the federal gov't and is contaminated with chemicals and/or spen ammunition.  This leads one to believe that the course might be near either Kings Bay Naval Base (home to quite a few nuclear submarines) or Fort Stewart (a very well established Army base).

D)  A quick web search yielded a few references to the course on the web.  All three matches were located on the Liberty County message board (Liberty county is the coastal Ga. county that includes Fort Stewart).  The first message was posted July 2, 2001 and read,

"I'm trying to locate Dean creek Golf Club which I believe might be in Liberty county near Sunbury or Fort Morris. If someone could confirm this and give me directions to the golf club I would be most appreciative."

That message was followed by a reply asking whether the original poster of the inquiry had ever found the course.  Additionally the person who posted the reply also posted a new question on the board as to the location of the course.  It read,

"Could anyone in Libery County help me locate Dean Creek Gof Club? It's off the beaten path in the backwoods and borders the water, either a river, inlet, or on the Atlantic shore itself. Any help you len wold be much appreciated ....... Many Thanks."

I have started glancing over the terrraserver aerials for the Sunbury/Fort Morris area but they are dated 1993 so the degree in which the course existed at the time of the photo might be questionable.

What does this tell me?  I really don't know...it appears that there is limited public knowledge of a dean creek golf club on the georgia coast, but it also appears that nobody is disclosing its location, or any details regarding it.

On a side note, this area of the Georgia coast also happened to be one of the favorite hideouts of the famed pirate blackbeard.  It should be interesting to see if the legend and aura that dean creek golf club has developed will prove to be more factual than the legend left behind by the coast's most famous rogue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2002, 12:04:48 PM »
Keith:

I sent Mr. Young (PhiltheAuthor) a private note a few hours ago with a cut-and-paste from the same message board.  He somehow thought that validated him as sane.

Don't spend too much time on TerraServer.  Your eyes will cross permanently before you find a golf course.  The article Phil fax'd me is very well written, but clearly fiction.  Like many urban legends, there is something to explain away all the holes.  Did you know there is something to treat contaminated land so it isn't hazardous, and actually makes it better for growing turf?  That's just one example.

If I find out Phil wrote this under an assumed name I will be even more upset than I am already.

Never mind that he made us verify that the place doesn't exist, he redirected a thread that was important to me to further his cause.

Unlike Dean Creek, Eau Claire does exist, I have played it, and you can verify.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Phil_the_Author

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2002, 12:23:53 PM »
John,

I am disappointed that you feel that I am less than genuine in my postings. I am especially concerned that you would state,
"If I found out that Phil wrote this under an assumed name I will be even more upset than I am already."

I had decided to let this die out a natural death when you put up the "Dean Creek" thrad & asking for all messages to be posted there, but due to your questioning my integrity in what motivated me to post what I did I feel that it deserves an answer.

I did NOT write the article. I have supplied you with Name, publisher & phone number of the person who did. Call him & you'll find out it isn't me!

Secondly, I only posted because I was NAIVE ENOUGH to believe that a thread titled "The Best Course You've Never Heard Of" might actually be for comments about courses that someone might feel would fit that category & for NO OTHER REASON WHATSOEVER!

If you wanted to discuss the Eau Claire Golf Club, why not just title the thread that way? I apologize if I mistakenly took away from your pleasure of discussing what is obviously an important course to you as I that was the absolute furthest thing from my mind. I do not get my thrills by posting comments on boards such as this in a means to give meaning to my ego. If so I would not have made only 3 posts before today. Please accept my apology for what you perceive that I have done wrong. Just understand their are no hidden motives or agendas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2002, 12:56:12 PM »
Phil:

The only thing you were naive enough to believe is that Dean Creek actually exists.  Forgive me if I thought the article you sent was so clearly fictitious that anyone could figure that out.  If I come across as angry, remember that you were the one addressing my character with a comment about my hardened heart.

If subsequent posts under this thread yielded other nominations as similar unheralded golf courses I would have no problem.  Mr. Daley has offered up his Brown County.  If Dave Seanor visited this forum he'd probably be espousing the merits of Newcastle near Pittsburgh.  Remember that I am the one who undertook a rather time consuming project of assembling others' nominations in a list of "Hidden Gems" over a year ago, so I believe I clearly meet the criteria of this site... those who foster open discussions about golf course architecture.

If you and I were talking about the most promising pitching talents of all time, I'd be naturally upset if you pulled out a Sports Illustrated article about Sidd Finch as "proof" that he existed.  I'll continue to behave like a crusty cynic whose dour demeanor belies my 34 years.  I think that's better than going on a quixotic journey to find some golf course that only exists in the writer's dreams.

My suspicion, nothing more than just that, that YOU authored the article/story you sent me stems from my belief that you are a little too familiar with the specifics to just be a person who read it once and added Dean Creek to your "Get To" list.  I'm sorry if you are offended by my comments, but I think it is pretty unacceptable to mislead me and the members of this board with a work of fiction.  My apologies if you didn't realize the Dean Creek Club didn't exist.

Apology accepted, sorry to be so combative about this.

(You should be flattered that I was willing to credit you with the story.  It is actually very well written!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2002, 01:20:59 PM »
Newcastle near Pittsburgh? Now I have some work to do... :)

Phil -

I've said many times before that the toughest thing to do on this board is read a post & accurately gauge the author's tone. If we were all sitting around at the 19th discussing this, I know I would be questioning your story, but not in any sort of angry manner. I suspect even John the 34 year old curmudgeon (as a side note, John, I did not realize I was your elder - maybe you should refer to me as Mr. Pazin ;)) would not be as angry or bitter as he might seem. That's why I litter my posts with the darn smileys, stupid as they may seem. It's hard enough for people to understand my wry humor in person - online, it's downright impossible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2002, 06:28:08 PM »
John Conley:

I don't know who took those photos or when but from the look of them I would say that golf course was very firm and fast when those photos were taken. The course has that "light green sheen" which is the look of firm and fast!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2002, 06:42:49 PM »
John Conley,

I think Boca Rio qualifies, but you'll let me know what you think in October.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2002, 08:02:28 PM »
Boca Rio is a superb golf course, and certainly one of the best built during the relatively dry period of the 60s.

It has beauty, variety, progressively difficult challenge, thoughtful hazard placement, unconventional greens, and a lovely ambiance.  

The course profile on this site gives a good preview of what to expect, but it's one of the only golf courses in south Florida where the entire club is golf only...without housing and other distractions.  It truly is a hidden gem! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2002, 08:27:50 PM »
Tom Paul:

I played a few weeks ago and it was quite firm.  Nobody on this board could have had any qualms with course conditions.  The speed of the greens was fast and they have some good contour to them, like all of the old courses in the Twin Cities area two hours to the West.  Pro Jim Julsrud hit some nice drives down the center that were able to roll a bit.  I was hitting a rather high cut that day and wasn't getting a runner.  I took the photos and apologize for not taking more or better shots.

Pat:

There is no doubt you could say the same thing about Boca Rio.  I may have trumped up the title of the thread a bit, but the reason was to profile an under-recognized course with a unique history.  The first time I heard your course considered a great track was when I asked Ran about a few on his "Next 50" that I hadn't heard of.  

JWC: I've lived in Florida for about 10 years and NEVER heard anyone here talking about it.
Ran:  I don't know, but I've heard it is pretty good.

Then I heard his "source" was PAT MUCCI, obviously biased member of the place!!  I wasn't sold, but was indeed curious.  I said I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see for myself.  Then Ran profiled it on GCA, which is good enough for me, and my thoughts changed.  I'm now sure it is real good and now know why it has been able to avoid more attention.

I'll admit it.  I was skeptical.  I usually don't take one members opinion as too important and am glad everything you've said on the site has been confirmed!  I will let you know my thoughts soon!

Mike:

As you did in your thread, I always look at things in context of their era.  I say that for much of the 60s and 70s the field of golf course design was simply getting a course built.  Take rather prominent courses like Disney's Magnolia or Bunker Hills and Braemar in Minneapolis and you'll find rather bland designs compared to what gets built today.  Courses by Dick Wilson and Joe Lee and Robert Trent Jones were rather generic, and they were considered among the era's innovative ones.

Opening a course like the city of Edina did in about 1963 was a big deal, if for no other reason than golf courses hadn't been opening near Minneapolis since about 1930 or so.

I wondered after playing the Island course at Innisbrook if that wasn't one of the top 25 courses built in its era.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2002, 08:38:12 PM »
John,

Please don't take my mention of Boca Rio having been built in the 60s as a "left handed compliment".  I was simply trying to place it in historical perspective, as well as provide some clue as to how it may have passed largely under the radar screen.

Bottom line is that it's a very good course in any era.  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts after you play it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2002, 08:58:38 PM »
I didn't take it that way at all.  I just like to think of courses in terms of the era when they were built.

The analogy I use is Casablanca or Star Wars.  Casablanca is a great movie, but even better if you realize the climate around WWII.  Star Wars, to borrow a line from Butthead, well... "these Special Effects aren't very special."  But they were at the time!  It is a great film more for what it did to advance Sci Fi than for the actual story line with Storm Troopers, Hans Solo, Leiah, and Seethreepio.

To play a golf course built in the 60s and expect some high-touch waterfall and GPS isn't fair, yet a lot of people prefer that.  A guy once told me, "My brother and I didn't understand the excitement about Pinehurst #2.  We like #6, #7, and #8."

Sir, you've just told me you prefer newer courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pulling to the top...
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2004, 11:03:55 AM »
for Mark Chalfant and Rick Shefchik.

As I recall, the thread was hi-jacked by Phillip Young for an inane discussion about Dean Creek, a mythical (although he is naive enough to insist it wasn't) course in Georgia that does a mere 10 rounds a year because nobody can find it.

But the part about Eau Claire is worth reading.

I'm so happy, cuz today I used the search
First time for everything.

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2004, 11:07:32 AM »
Mine was Mike Strantz at Tobacco Road and Bulls Bay.
@EDI__ADI

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2004, 11:30:34 AM »
Okay, John. Now I gotta play this course (Eau Claire, not Dean Creek). I'll try to get there before the summer is out.

Makes me wonder if Vardon did any of the other old western Wis. courses...
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2004, 11:34:06 AM »
John Conley,

Well............ I'm waiting  ;D

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
21 months in the making
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2004, 12:01:21 PM »
Pat:

What are you waiting for?  For me to chime in on how Boca Rio compares to Eau Claire?  If so, apples and oranges - but both excellent.  Your cost structure for BR is much different and it is unheard of because of low-profile exclusivity.  Eau Claire is, well, it's in Eau Claire.

Boca Rio is flat and difficult.  EC is hard to score on because it is at times overtreed and very difficult around the hole.  Fast green speeds and slopes make putting an adventure.

Boca Rio is modern and long, even though it was built a long time ago.  EC is short by today's standards.

Overall I think Eau Claire is a better golf course because the site is so much better, and Boca Rio represents a superior job by the architect because it is hard to work with flat land.

I think that answers what you were asking me.  Sorry it took two years!!

Rick:  Play Dean Creek before you play Eau Claire.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2004, 12:03:37 PM »
Okay, John. Now I gotta play this course (Eau Claire, not Dean Creek). I'll try to get there before the summer is out.

Makes me wonder if Vardon did any of the other old western Wis. courses...

Rick:

I doubt anyone not nipping from a bottle designed it, but go play Spring Valley if you haven't.  It was nine when my dad and I first visited it in the late 70s or early 80s.  It is now a very fun and quirky 18.

Just wondering, why didn't you heed my advice to play Eau Claire??  Get the car and hit that and Wild Ridge on the same day and you'll have spent your time wisely.


ForkaB

Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2004, 01:34:13 PM »
If I've never heard of a course, how can I possibly know how good it is?  Or is this some sort of Zen koan..........

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2004, 02:04:22 PM »
Rich Goodale:

Because very few have heard of the course, I set out two years ago to share with the participants on this board how wonderful it is.  Even though I have supplied pictures, you won't know for yourself until you play it.

ForkaB

Re:The BEST Course You've NEVER Heard Of
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2004, 03:09:37 PM »
Sorry, John.  I thought you were asking a question.  My bad. :-[

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