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Matt_Ward

The "darkness" of Sahalee
« on: August 24, 2002, 03:37:07 PM »
It's hard to imagine a course much "darker" than Sahalee. In listening to today's telecast I was struck by the comment of field reporters such as David Feherty who mentioned the stark contrast between the sun and shadows within the course.

I've played Sahalee and don't doubt it does possess some fine qualities, however, the claustrophobic nature of the trees and the manner by which they encroach soooo close to the line of play makes me really winch because the nature of recoveries and angles are reduced to the same over and over again type of play. Hitting a ball down the center line seems to be the only choice although Lanny Wadkins did mention how a number of holes do work both left and right off the tee.

Is Sahalee just too "dark" and can greatness really be found on a course that features trees soooo near the line of play? I'm curious what others think -- especially those who have either played Sahalee or similar type layouts on a steady basis. I know I could not possibly enjoy playing such a course time after time because of this situation. ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Huxford

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2002, 06:54:35 PM »
During the international coverage of the first round Ewan Murray said; "It's refreshing to see a course so narrow".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bruceski

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2002, 06:59:28 PM »
Why are there trees essentially blocking the approach to the 11th green? I'm not sure if this adds or subtracts to the risk of the second shot. The fairway is cut around those trees, therefore if the player's ball catches a branch, he's left with a fairly friendly lie and an easier 3rd shot. If the trees aren't there, the greenside bunkers likely get more play. Am I right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Henry_W

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2002, 07:16:38 PM »
Sahalee seems to me to be the true antithesis of a links golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2002, 07:59:29 PM »
Its a good comparison between darkness and Sahalee.  Considering the amount of rain and overcast sky in Seattle this telecast is actually making it look good.  

Bruce:  There are 3 nines at Sahalee and the 11th is actually the 2nd as the members play it.  I find it amazing that the players are reaching the green in two.  The hole plays like a double dogleg for mortals because of the trees and I told the pro that playing it under normal circumstances there is no rational way to play it and he agreed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2002, 09:56:56 PM »
What would you expect for a guy that should be designing parks  and highway medians instead of golf courses?

I don't know Joel. Look at the amount of rain and overcast skies there are in Scotland. Those courses always look good to me. At least through my lens on TV and in person!

Quote
"Your abilities as a designer are gauged whether or not they have major golf tournaments at your courses."-Theodore Robinson Sr. in the Orange County Business Journal, shortly before the PGA at Sahalee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2002, 07:33:32 AM »
Despite the fact that Sahalee is severely over-treed, there is a magnificent quality to the size of these sequoia-like Douglas firs.  They are overwhelming and beautiful.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2002, 07:34:38 AM »
I also would like to change a quote I made on a previous thread as well.

It should now read, "the Links at Spanish Bay are as much a links course as Sahalee is."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2002, 07:55:07 AM »
For all the gab that goes on GCA I can't for the life of me see how archiecturally interested people can view Sahalee in anything but a positive light.

The course is nothing more than a tight corset -- albeit with beautiful and healthy trees, no doubt.

I'm personally glad the NW has a major event once again. but must it be Sahalee? Is Sahalee the comparable example to The Belfry in terms of placing a course because of location rather than it's overall quality when compared to others in the general vicinity? Could not the Tour have found a better site for such a prestigious event or is it simply because one must have site near to Seattle in order to boost the turnouts and build the fanfare?

Given the limited field in the event I just wonder why Bandon Dunes could not have been selected? Now -- that would be an interesting site with plenty of interest. And, before all start to rant and rave about lack of hotels and the like -- I say so what! The players will be accomodated and anyone nearby would drive the miles to see Tiger and the boys do battle along the Pacific!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2002, 07:58:57 AM »
matt:

I haven't played the Belfry, but I don't have any real desire to do so either.

Sahalee is a very good golf course with good topography.  But, the caveat to any positive is that it is overgrown.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2002, 10:30:04 AM »
Although a few holes at Sahalee are truly narrow, I think that if you played it you would find it generally wider than it appears.  The trees in front of 11, #4(?) and possibly 16 are narrow.  Many of the other holes feel narrower than they actually are due to the vertical nature of the trees.  These trees are truly tall!  They give the perception of playing a horizontal elevator shaft.  

I am sure that the players would tire of this as a regular menu but Sahalee certainly gives a different look and feel to trounament golf.  

Sahalee is a delight to play when given the opportunity but I wil agree it is not a GREAT golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2002, 11:01:48 AM »
Matt,
Sahalee is what it is. Drive it where you should, put your approach on the proper section of the green, putt cautiously and you will probably score well.
I appreciate Ewan Murray's take-- "It's refreshing to see a course so narrow"-- as posted by Bruce Strober.
It was fascinating to watch TW manage his way around TOC in the Open. It is also fascinating to watch him, and the other players, squeeze it around Sahalee.

How many great courses play narrow, even if they are wide open, especially for those players who aren't out for bogies?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2002, 02:19:30 PM »
For those of you that think Sahalee is a good golf course, I can only suggest to really hit the books and start studying what is good golf design.

Are you sure you aren't watching the US Amateur from Oakland Hills on NBC? (which looks as if it has been Fazio-ized)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2002, 04:35:46 PM »
A comment about the telecast from Sahalee:

What a BIG disappointment!

There wasn't even one aerial, or even a fly-by of the holes.

As I've said before, the real reason I wanted to see this tournament was to see the course.  I enjoyed it so much when I got to play there before the PGA, that I wanted to see how it looks today.

With the crummy telecast on CBS, you almost didn't get to see ANY of the course. :'(

For some reason, they just like to show 'highlights' of guys' putts dropping into the cup.

CBS - WAKE UP !!!!

TV viewers would like to see the course, the holes ,the greens, etc while we watch the tournament!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Bruceski

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2002, 04:45:06 PM »
Paul,

I agree. The telecast was especially bad today. Too many commercials (as usual), but they only showed the last two or three groups, and only those within 5 strokes of the leader. You would have thought that Ernie Els had withdrawn from the tournament, though he was in Tiger's group. [I sure like watching Ernie standing and watching Tiger putt!] CBS actually lowered itself and showed Rich Beem putting out on the 18th. And he was near the top of the leaderboard! Guess there's no time for the current PGA champion when you got to plug the fall lineup and make Buick, American Express, and EMC happy.

TV golf is getting so bad I'm thinking of writing it off for awhile.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2002, 05:07:57 PM »
It's long overdue for Finchem and company to find a quality layout to host such a "prestigious" world championship (how many of these events are there?).

PUUUUULEEEEEZZZZ -- No more Firestone South and ditto on Sahalee (no disrespect to the great golf fans of the NW). Also throw into the mix Champions too!

Want to know an event that's littered with class venues? Try the US Amateur for the next three years ...

2003 - Oakmont
2004 - Winged Foot / West
2005 - Merion / East

HEEELLLLLOOOOOO ... anybody home in Ponte Vedra? With a limited field (approximately 70 players) it's clearly possible to be a bit more creative than what one gets now.

P.S. Agree about TV coverage -- CBS is saving $$$ on PGA Tour telecastsand getting their field operation ready for another NFL season -- you don't thing they get cheap with football do they now? Without aerial shots you don't have golf coverage -- what yo have is reporting on whose putting time after time after time after time. ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2002, 06:37:33 PM »
Matt:

What's wrong with Sahalee?

Have you played there yet?

If not, the TV telecast definately did not do it justice!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2002, 07:30:35 PM »
;)

I grew up on a tight Oak, Elm and Maple tree lined course and learned to hit the ball straight, right, and left, low, high etc... as well work on richocet sounding skills.  It was always a delight playing in the shade on a summer day... darkness, lighting effects, or camoflage,... why not have a unique "narrow" course like this on the "pro-tour?"

I believe Sahalee fits the PGA's and Seattle area's interests to a tee... the venue shows off the topographic/geographic nature of the area to those who will likely never see it in person, and the real course architecture is secondary to the money at stake... Should we really care how the pros end up playing the course... or how the golf media rates a course?  

I've never played golf in the Pacific Northwest.  Someday I will and whether on a public or private course, I'll expect to to see some of the same type routings and narrow tree lined holes as Sahalee.  If not I'll keep on looking or just head to Tumwater for a beer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2002, 04:44:58 AM »
Paul R:

Sahalee is a good course, but when you factor in all the trees and the "effective" narrow manner by which it plays I personally believe it becomes a bit predictable.Think of it like a one-lane highway. There's very little room for turning or effective imagination because the course says simply -- play me this way or no way.

Any course, not just Sahalee, that allows tree growth to become the DOMINANT aspect of its demands and strategic make-up, in my mind, just fails to excite the senses and will always be a full notch below those that don't follow this design aspect. In New Jersey, where I live, there are more than few of these types of courses -- Ridgewood, Alpine, etc. Trees do not enhance shotmaking skills -- they reduce it to a sameness that fails to broaden the challenge.

In addition, at least from I could see from TV, when tree-lined courses ALSO ADD rough you get hit both ways.

Washington State has a number of wonderful courses and I'm happy to see the Tour get to the NW but other options are possible, and, as I said previously, given the limited number of players you can use other facilities that might not be an option with a regular full-sized field.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2002, 10:01:33 AM »
Matt let's be fair to Sahalee on at least one level.  They have not "Allowed" trees to become the dominant architectural feature.  The trees have always been there.  Prior to the PGA a few years back the club actually went in and removed literally thousands of trees.  They also went under the canopy and removed much of the underbrush (Oregon Grape, Silal and other thick ground cover).  What you see now is a tamer and wider version of what used to exist.  

My conjecture on why their were no helicopter fly bys is that with height of the trees and the relative narrowness of the course that the results would be very poor.  A solution might have been to use computer generated versions.  Bill Gates is always looking for a new project.  

And finally, the tour seems to be trying to find a way to place a tournament in the northwest.  And in reality the number of courses with the quality required to hold this type of event are limited.  Snoqulmie may get a Senior event but is unwalkable for the regular tour.  Washington National is a possibility as is John Harbottle's Olympic Course at Gold Mountain.  After that the pickings are pretty slim.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2002, 11:11:55 AM »
Tommy,

Don't blame Fazio for Oakland Hills.  Blame Art Hills.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2002, 11:30:21 AM »
Frankly I think they should have just cut down ALL the trees and designed a links course on that site  ;)  Then again, those trees are magnificant so maybe they should have left them alone and just not played golf there  :(

Come on guys, variety is what makes this game great!  As much as I love a wide open links course (they are my favorite), I love to see different style designs and it's the trees that makes this particular course unique.  Is Sahalee a 10 - No.  But it's a 7 in my book.  

Furthermore, it's a wonderful "walk in the park"!  The GW guys should love the place  ;)
Mark

By the way, it's not as tight as some might think.  There is room to play golf shots on most every hole and you have to play all different kinds and work the ball all different ways.  It is a shot makers course and some credit should be given for that aspect alone!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2002, 07:51:22 PM »
David, My point exactly (I'm sorry you didn't get my dry sense of humor.)

I knew Art Hills was doing work at Oakland Hills and the comment was made in the same jest as when almost every architect in the late 40's to the early 70's were emulating the style of Robert Trent Jones, and in the 80's when so many architects found that emulating Pete Dye was very good for business.

What you are seeing at Oakland Hills is emualtion of the proto-typical Fazio style bunker. If the recipe works, these commercial guys are going to emulate it. Not that my modern classical guys do not emulate themselves. Its just that they have so much more taste.

Paul, I want you to fully understand that I respect your diverse opinion, because it differs so much from my own, and allows me to follow my true likes and dislikes.

To me, Sahalee may be one of the best examples of modern age thinking from the 70's-80's, as well as the most apt description of just how mediocre a golf course can get without being really bad.

I wish someone can realy point out to me a key feature of the course that makes it so great in the eyes of Paul and the people who pick event hosts for this paticular tournament.

God forbid that they take it somewhere good.
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Matt_Ward

Re: The "darkness" of Sahalee
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2002, 08:04:06 PM »
Cos:

I have a good amount of respect for Sahalee, but I think it's important for people who gush about golf courses being super when they have LESS trees to be consistent in their position. That comment was not directed at you Cos.

If I would rate Sahalee among the courses I've played I would hesitate to include it among my personal top 100. Somewhere between 101 and 125. Nonetheless, the course does demand healthy respect when playing (just ask Phil!), but the tree growth is STILL present even with the pruning and elimination the club has done.

As far as other NW sites are concerned I think it would have been interesting to see other sites considered, What about Desert Canyon in Orondo? What about crossing the border and going to British Columbia? Stretched to the max Desert Canyon could be something with appropriate rough and added greens speed? What do you think?

I also believe the NEC could be held at Bandon Dunes because the field is so small. The galleries would still be present and if any event on Tour is really a made-for-TV type this event is surely one.

I love the NW because so little high level golf gets to that region, but the Sahalee card has been played enough times in my book and I say that with great respect for what the course is. I just can't view a course with such a heavy emphasis on trees to be that high on the pecking order.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Erdmann

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Re: The
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2002, 08:29:03 AM »
As much as I love living in this part of the country, the simple fact is that there just aren't that many courses of architectural merit capable of hosting a big PGA event.  Sure, Bandon and Pacific Dunes would be incredible venues, but there just isn't the lodging anywhere close that would be needed for an event of that size.  You think the typical pampered PGA Tour pro or corporate sponsor would be happy staying in a $59 coastal motel that hasn't seen new carpet since 1962?  Cos suggested some possible Washington sites, and here in Oregon some options better than Sahalee.  Good possibilities here would include Crosswater in Sunriver, Eugene CC, and Columbia Edgewater.  The USGA clearly likes Pumpkin Ridge, but it's far from being a US Open caliber golf course.  A PGA Championship or NEC type event wouldn't be a bad fit for Pumpkin Ridge though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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