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Mark_Fine

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Emmet Drawings
« on: January 24, 2007, 02:36:29 PM »
Is there anybody out there that can post an original drawing that was done by Emmet or Tull?  Any help would be appreciated.  If you want to email me offline instead, that would be fine.  We need it to do some comparisons.  
Thanks!
Mark
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 02:37:19 PM by Mark_Fine »

Ian Andrew

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 09:30:23 PM »
Just curious, why not post a small section of your plan, just in case the architect might possibly be someone else?

Or are you certain it is, and are just trying to confirm if your plan is an original?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 09:31:36 PM by Ian Andrew »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 08:08:09 AM »
Ian,
I emailed you offline.  Let me see if I can post something later today.  We don't know the name of the original architect and it certainly could be someone other than Emmet.  

The hope was that we might pick up something here that would help the cause.  Actually, I have already received a number of emails from this post and I thank you guys for the help.  It's time consuming but its fun especially when you finally get to the bottom of it.  
Mark  

TEPaul

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 08:43:52 AM »
If anyone finds Emmet drawings and particularly early ones (I'm talking about pre-1910) I would be REALLY interested in hearing about them and I can guarantee this new USGA architecture archive initiative would be too.

For that matter if ANYONE knows of ANY architectural drawings (other than just stick routings) that precede 1910 from ANY ARCHITECT ANYWHERE I would love to hear about them and so would......

Matter of fact if anyone has anything original on paper from any of the pre 1910 architects I would love to hear about it and so would.....

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 09:30:41 AM »
Maybe one you guys will recognize the style/handwriting of this routing of Copake Country Club in Craryville, NY.  We are trying to determine the designer and this is one of the tougher ones I've come across though we've only been at it a few months.  Mike Cirba bailed me out with his discovery of Authur Lockwood's work at Brookside CC.  Any one have any thoughts?  

« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 09:32:04 AM by Mark_Fine »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 09:46:28 AM »
Mark,

What i find stylistically important is that the fairway lines are all drawn straight, even the doglegs, as if the person was tracing a line out with a ruler and turning it and continuing a straight line.

This is a very distinctive style especially when you take a careful look at the coast line. This is drawn with a highly artistic and talented hand and so the fairway lines the are deliberate rather than done by an amateur or inexperienced hand.

The fairway numbering and directing arrows are also similar to the style used by someone with an engineering background.


ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 10:11:15 AM »
I'm consulting at Dudley (Mass.) Hill Golf Course, a 9-hole, 1926 Emmet, and during my research I've found there to be two styles Emmet went with. There is the style such as the original Wee Burn and the deceased Hob Nob Hill, both in Connecticut, that feature liberal bunkering from tee to green. Then there is the style that he expressed in a 1919 Golf Illustrated article entitled, Economy in Golf Links Construction, (thank you Bob Labbance) where Emmet postulates that reducing golf course construction costs by eliminating fairway bunkering for instance brings down the price that must be paid by private or public golfers and thus allows more people to play the game. Dudley Hill is from the second group. A 1951 aerial I uncovered shows only 1 fairway cross hazard and a smattering of penal fairway bunkering.

Emmet also appears to implement his version of a Short hole in each one of his courses and I do not see that in this drawing. As I've learned, however, there are no hard and fast rules for any course designer from that period.

Anthony

Scott Witter

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 10:13:10 AM »
Philip:

You make a good point and we noticed this.  It is also interesting to note, though you can't see it in this post, the fairways have stipple pattern on them, (an artistic technique of adding styling/character with MANY tiny dots by a repetitive hand motion on the paper)  This pattern only occurs on the front nine and the back nine has hash marks placed along the edges of fairway lines.

I also found it interesting to see that the artist took time to indicate the flow of play from the last green to the next tee with arrows.  I haven't seen that before.

The bunkers are denoted with hash marks for slope, a common technique and all putting surfaces are shown with straight lines through them too.

Finally, notice how many putting surfaces are drawn with a squarish shape.

wsmorrison

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 10:31:01 AM »
What is the size of the drawing?  What format is the drawing presented (in a book, pamphlet, stand-alone map)?  What year did the club open?

Tom Roewer

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 10:57:41 AM »
Mark:  Was this costruction done at or near the time that Raynor did Hotchkiss?  Knowing that Emmet had an epiphany from seeing Raynor's work, and thinking of the engineering style in the drawing, I wonder?????  Do anyof Raynors originals look at all like this????

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 11:01:41 AM »
From 1926 Webster Times:

"Devereux Emmet, head of the firm of New York architects, who laid out the course and who were selected by President H.N. Slater for with work with Mr. Tull architect in charge, are in Webster today and will lay out greens that are to be built there. The work will be started under expert supervision and each green will be 60x90 in area."

Most of the greens there are in fact rectangles and very close in size.

Anthony



Mike_Cirba

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 11:21:49 AM »
I'm not sure if I shared this link before, but it purports to list all courses Tull was involved with, many with Emmet.

Interestingly there is nothing there for any course in Webster, so it's obviously not comprehensive but it's still a nice, very useful list.

http://www.rockleigh.org/Recreation/Golf/Tull.htm
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 11:23:08 AM by MPCirba »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 11:51:28 AM »
How is the course?
How many acres?
What is the terrain like?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 11:52:05 AM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 12:04:22 PM »
Someone mentioned Raynor and he is a name that we have thought of as well.  Maybe Scott will have time to post some photos?

The course opened (best we can tell from references found at The Golf House), in 1922.  That drawing came from a long time resident at Copake Lake who collects postcards.   He apparently scanned it off one of the cards and sent it to us.  

The course sits on the hillside (originally a 174 arce parcel) over looking Copake Lake.  It is a beautiful setting with lots of interesting features including cop mounds, cop bunkers, buried stone walls, some coffin bunkering, squarish greens, some cross bunkers, flanking bunkers, irregular mounding, ...

It will be distinctive when many of these features are touched up and restored.  

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 12:22:25 PM »
According to Evangelist of Golf, Raynor's Hotchkiss is under construction in 1923-1924 and opens in '24.

Anthony
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 12:26:41 PM by Anthony Pioppi »

Neil_Crafter

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2007, 04:42:50 PM »
Mark
The lettering on the plan is very italicized and stylistically to me looks more like it was drawn in the 1940s to 1950s than very early 20thC. Is it possible it is a later plan of the state of the layout at a particular time?
cheers Neil

Marty Bonnar

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 04:49:18 PM »
This pattern only occurs on the front nine and the back nine has hash marks placed along the edges of fairway lines.

Scott,
normally hashed/dashed lines define things either still to be done i.e. a second construction phase; or, sometimes, things which have been removed or altered. In this case, maybe the phasing for the second nine?

FBD.
Assembled in Michigan from foreign parts.

wsmorrison

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2007, 04:56:07 PM »
I doubt the drawing is an architectural one by the designer.  Perhaps, as suggested, it is a later drawing.

I've seen plans where one 9 is drawn in a different style than the other even when they were built at the same time.  I think it possible that the two nines were being differentiated.

Interesting that both nines are counterclockwise, following a very similar course with the front nine inside the back nine.  With a routing like this, wouldn't you think it probable that it was designed at the same time?

Scott Witter

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2007, 05:36:43 PM »
Wayne & Martin

You are both intutively astute as we have learned (at least from a source) the the nines were built independent of each other, though the source couldn't say/confirm the years apart.

"Scott,
normally hashed/dashed lines define things either still to be done i.e. a second construction phase"

Good call Martin ;)

"With a routing like this, wouldn't you think it probable that it was designed at the same time?"

Wayne: Precisely what we have thought and likely the case.

I also think Neil is on to something regarding the 'drawing' of the plan and when the course design was actually done.  We are still looking into this.   BTW Neil, thanks for the plan referral of the other Emmet course.  To bad the resolutiuon is so bad..we will have to see it in person if it still exits.

Scott Witter

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2007, 05:41:53 PM »
I posted these a while back, but I don't know how to work the search function to recall, so I'll repost...hopefully :)


Chris_Blakely

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2007, 11:00:12 PM »
The Emmet drawings I have seen do not look like the Copake drawing you have.  However, as someone stated earlier, I do not think that the drawing is orginal.  The mounding and green sites remind me of many of the Emmet courses I have played.  The mounding alone around the greens would almost surely preclude Raynor!

Chris

Mark_Fine

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Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 07:35:44 AM »
I found out late last night that the scan I have of that drawing is from an advertising brochure.  The brochure is 17" x 22" and printed on both sides.  Originally the brochure was folded twice to get it to 8-1/2 x 11.  At sometime the brochure was further folded in thirds to fit in a regular mailing envelope.  The map of the golf course is the middle third of the back of the brochure.  

Whether it is an original drawing or not, we still don't know for sure.  I am now trying to find out a date of when that brochure was printed.  That might at least tell us something.  

Chris,
If you saw the course, you would say if feels like an Emmet design.  There are also touches of Raynor on some of the holes.  Maybe Scott will post a few more photos or I will get to some later.  

Indications are that the course started as 9 holes and 9 were added later with the acquisition of additional land.  Recently, we identified an individual up in the Albany area who says they have a box of "Copake stuff" that was given to them from the deceased author of the Copake history book.  He supposedly kept all his research info. in there.  We need to get up there and go through it.  
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 07:36:44 AM by Mark_Fine »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 08:31:04 AM »
Indications are that the course started as 9 holes and 9 were added later with the acquisition of additional land.  Recently, we identified an individual up in the Albany area who says they have a box of "Copake stuff" that was given to them from the deceased author of the Copake history book.  He supposedly kept all his research info. in there.  We need to get up there and go through it.  

Mark,

I got your emails and I can't identify anything, unfortunately.

However, the "box" you just mentioned sounds like a potential treasure trove!!  ;D

Please keep us informed as to your findings...it sounds like a fun exploration!

Scott Witter

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 09:05:32 AM »
I'll try a couple more photos..having some major trouble with photobucket that causes serious delay with uploading pics :P






ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Emmet Drawings
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 09:47:33 AM »
Somebody explain to me - use little words, be specific, on how to post photos and I'll put up a couple of Dudley Hill. Or send me your email, I'll send them to you with captions and you can post them. I have dial-up.

Apioppi@earthlink.net

Anthony

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