[David Wigler]

Reading the Trump thread got me to thinking about who are today's Marion Hollins.  Who are the visionaries willing to spend huge sums to build monoliths that 80 years from now might be our great grandchildren's NGLA's and Pine Valley's.  Off the top of my head, I came up with Mike Keiser, Steve Wynn, Donald Trump, Herb Kohler and Terry Friedman.  Who else belongs on this list?  Given that Terry will only build one course, does he get a spot?

[Rick_Noyes]

I have to ask..Are the visionaries the people with the money or the architects they hire?

[WilliamWang]

i think dick youngscap, julian robertson, and perhaps greg ramsay could be added to your list.

marion hollins seemed to be something of a muse in that her ideas and energy inspired some great courses, whereas today are there any muses?  i suppose the owner/developer is his own muse.

[David Wigler]

Rick,

The owner developer is who I am looking for.  The architect is the instrument but history will be the judge of their success.  It is the Herb Kohler's of the world that risked a personal fortune to build a facility in the middle of nowhere in hopes of having people come.

William,

Greg Ramsey is an interesting name to consider for this list.  I hope he can get his deal together and his course built.  If he does, he might just belong here.

[Steve Lapper]

Rick:

The correct answer is both if no blank check is offered and a mutual collaboration evolves.

To all:

I'd eliminate the Trumpster (just not honest or humble enough) and add Ken Bakst....a visionary is singular, ala George Crump. Roger Hansen might be added as well.

[THuckaby2]

Mr. Keiser of Bandon fame?

TH

[David Wigler]

Steve,

What do honesty and humility have to do with risking great personal fortunes in an attempt to build world class golf courses.  I think that Trump is an extremely successful businessman and has situational business ethics.  He really is not very different from his peers.  I suspect that Trump is every bit as humble as the developers of the classics of the 20's.

[Steve Lapper]

David,

Trump, to his business credit, does not risk great personal fortunes when developing his courses. He typically comes in on the heels of a broken developer aho can be substantilly crammed down and his membership fee structure, in NY & Fla to date, have made him wealthy with little or no risk. That said, his latest NJ project may reverse that trend.

You are right about the comparison between old developers, I admit my foilble. Yet, the earlier visionaries didn't have the benefit of sophisticated, multiple layer financing that produced riskless budgets

[Ed_Baker]

Mike Keiser already has my vote, who ever heard of Bandon Oregon before Pac dunes? Similar to Clementon N.J. of that era?

[McCloskey]

I don't think you can have such a list without including Lyle Anderson.
He developed the desert outside of Phoenix when everyone else thought he was crazy:  
Desert Highlands
Desert Mountain (6 courses)
Superstition Mountain (2 courses)
Las Campanas in Sante Fe, NM (2 courses)
Hokulia in Kona, Hawaii
Loch Loman in Scotland (2 courses, second in planning)
Whether you like his courses or not, he has had a major influence on golf course development.
He also is a major tournament owner: the Tradition and Scottish Open.
JMHO

[brad miller]

RM, and his little web site.

[David Wigler]

I didn't realize all of that about Anderson.  He belongs on the list.

[BV]

Archie Struthers?  The new Crump of South Jersey?  

Visionary, yes.

[TEPaul]

I'd nominate people like Chris Goodwin and John Drake of Redtail and certainly ken Bakst of Friar's Head. The primary reason I would is these are fellows that have tried to take golf architecture in a somewhat different direction from the same old, same old of what's generally been done in the modern era. Certainly in the same direction as men like Keiser of Bandon Dunes. I'd also put ArchieS and Roger Hansen in there too for what they've done recently.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have to tell you that this post puzzles me. Its a good one, simply because we should celebrate all visionaries who have taken the chance, and have been successful at doing it. Please lets not de-rate the people who deserve to be labeled visionaries with people that are simply doing it for anything less then full passion.

Now David, to address your ideas of visionary:

1. Mike Keiser-Undoubtedly so, but like all true visionaries, he probably doesn't even think of himself in this vein.
2. Steve Wynn-Would anyone actually put him a class with George Crump? Lets just say that he is a visonary when it came to over-commericializing Las Vegas. and it wasn't even his idea. It was Ben Siegel's
3. Donald Trump-ABSOLUTELY NOT! The Donald is a promoter and hype creator. He has NO clue about Golf Course Architecture other then having a secretary or assistant call Hendersonville, NC.
4. Herb Kohler-Maybe, but he has to overcome a lot of "A" hole issues (From what I'm told) before he deserves to put up on any pedestal.
5. Terry Friedman-No. I don't know Terry Friedman, nor have met him or Mr. Keiser. But I can't help to think that he was just following Mr. Keiser's lead.

My idea of Modern Day Visionaries:

1.Bill Coore-He is Neo, he is the one. (Ruthlessly stolen from The Matrix)
2.Ken Bakst-Maybe the Greatest, Most Intelligent, Most Knowledgable Developer mankind has ever known.
3.Howard Hughes-OK, maybe he didn't design any golf courses, and maybe he was crazy towards the end. Still, he was a genius. He could have owned every architecture firm ever started if he wanted to.
4.Orson Welles-I would have loved to have seen Orson Welles design a golf course. He would have forbidden all of the environmentalists from ever stepping on to the property. He also would have more then likely even forbidden the people who were putting the money up for the course. If he was a golfer and was given the chance to build and design, it would have been epic.

There are more, many more!

[Paul P]

I think it might be golfimatographer Robert Redford - http://www.kiawahresort.com/golf/bagger.htm

Interesting hole.

[Justin_Ryan]

I think that Greg Ramsey already belongs on the list.  For a 24 year old to get this project as far as he has without two zacs to rub together shows a remarkable drive and vision, and now we just have to hope he can pull it off.  He could have sold out to some of the bigger players, but this would have resulted in yet another expensive resort overrun with carts.  Anyone who is trying to build a world class course with cheap green fees and NO carts has certainly got my support.  Hopefully the Founders Bonds (or whatever they will be called) will be available soon and the project can finally get moving again.

PS I believe Lyle Anderson didn't develop Loch Lomond from scratch, but purchased it at a fire-sale from the Bank of Scotland and its Japanese owners.

[John Foley]

Can you consider the people listed as visionaries if they do it for more than the love of the game? While Lyle Anderson's scope is very impressive, I beleive he did it to sell real estate. Did Mr. Kohler develop his resorts for the love of the game when he never played before the development? It definetly ain't Wynn & Trump, though they didn't develop thier courses to sell real estate or cascinos directly. If you put them on the list, then why not Donald Bren?

While what they've done individually is very impressive, to compare them to Crump, Hollins and others sell the later short.

Mike Kieser and Dick Youngscape are far and away the biggest visionaries. I like the mention of the team from Redtail.

BTW, Who is Terry Friedman

And Greg Ramsey is 24!!!!

[David Wigler]

John,

Terry is Victoria National.  

Herb Kohler built one of the top three golf resorts in the US in the middle of nowhere.  I do not believe for one second that Keiser builds Pacific/Bandon Dunes if Kohler has not proved that airport access, road access, surrounding things to do, etc. are irrelevant as long as the golf is exceptional.  For that matter, Sand Hills, Red Mike, Wild Horse, etc. can all be traced to Herb Kohler's vision.  

[John Foley]

David,

But did Kohler buid it for the love of golf or other reasons?

Maybe were splitting hairs, and in the end were all better off for what he did. I just think his motives we're not for golf alone, which Youngscape, Keiser, Friedman, Hollins & Crump were.

When did Youngscape buid Firethorn? W/out that, we'd have no Sand Hills.

[David Wigler]

John,

I think that none of these people built courses for "Golf Alone".  Keiser did an extensive study on whether he could turn a profit at Dunes.  I have not seen the pro forma, but I would bet money that Kohler is mentioned as a similar property with similar challenges.  If it was for "Golf Alone," Dunes would give away tee times - right?  

I guarantee Firethorn was built after a viability study was performed that showed the costs of development and maintenance could be sustained through a membership fee and dues structure.  I have never been to Firethorn but my gut is that if I called up and said I am very passionate about golf - can I have a membership - they would ask me for a check first.  

Hollins and Crump were the same way.  Pine Valley and Cypress Pointe were not only intended to be self-sustaining private clubs but living memorials to their developers.  We tend to question today's people while giving historical figures a free pass.  IMO the finished result is what defines the legacy, not the motives for getting there.

[John Foley]

David,

If you look at it that way, then their are no visionaries. Everyone is in it for the profit period. Would Friar's Head be built if they knew all the problems they would run into? I wonder if the pro forma had a line in their for extended legal fee's fighting the enviromentalist.

I agree very very few people are going to throw money away just to build a golf course. The difference is did they love the game and want to expand it, carve out a niche, leave a legacy , not of themselves but of the game? I just don't beleive Herb Kohler did when he started. After the success of the American Club and Blackwolf Run he sure did do it for the love of the game. If not Whistling Starits would never have been built.

[Scott_Burroughs]

David,

I'm going to have to disagree with the fact the Blackwolf Run is in the "middle of nowhere", even Whistling Straits, built later.  BR is right next to a town of 50,000 and county of 100,000 residents and the interstate runs practically right by the place.  Milwaukee is less than an hour away.  WS is no more than 15 minutes past BR.  Not exactly the boondocks.

Bandon has no interstates, major highways, nor towns/cities near the place.  Coos Bay and North Bend combined have 25,000 residents.

However, Bandon is Times Square compared to Red Mike.

[David Wigler]

Scott,

Kohler is against a lake that produces extensive lake effect snow and cold.  They have an effective golf season of 6 months at best.  The demographic of the surrounding community cannot afford the green fees and will not stay at the resort.  It does not have a ski mountain like Treetops to sustain income during the winter months.  Milwaukee is not exactly LA or Chicago (It is a mid-market at best).  

From a risk standpoint, this was going to be the first true five star golf resort built (In the US) without a local demographic to sustain it (Needing to derive all of its revenue from tourism), in a snow belt location, without a 2nd season income.  Kohler took a huge risk.  A truly believe that Keiser builds (And I mean none of this to take away from Keiser who is one of my heroes and someone I would truly love to meet) because of the success Kohler showed him was possible if the golf is great.

[SL_Solow]

As a devotee of both sites it should be noted that the American Club was already in place with its hotel, restaurants(minus the golf clubhouse) wild life preserve, fishing etc before Blackwolf Run was ever built.  The courses were built to enhance the existing resort.  Bandon was conceived of as a golf destination from the start.  Mike Keiser wanted to build a great golf course and found the land in Oregon with some help from his friends.  He then searched for architectural help consistent with his goals.  The fact that he managed to build 2 courses (maybe 3?) adds to the credit he should receive.  While I am sure he wanted the project to be a financial success, I recall playing a round at the Dunes in Michigan shortly after he found the property in Bandon and his excitement was obvious and his focus was on the golf.

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