[John_Conley]

The Belfry will be hosting its fourth Ryder Cup of the last 5 held in Europe.  It obviously meets the criteria for hosting the event or the European hosts would quit going there.

I know there will be some sentiment that it isn't one of the best courses in Europe and an event like this should be held at The Old Course, Ballybunion, Sotogrande, or Walton Heath.  We heard this last week when Mt. Juliet hosted the WGC and a month ago when Hazeltine entertained the PGA.  The argument never really changes - just the date, course, and event.

I want to toss out an analogy and see if I make sense to anyone.  Here goes:

Perhaps we shouldn't be looking to tournament sites to be the Golf Shrines that we'd like to play.  Corporate sponsors' tents, throngs of patrons, and accessibility issues arise for high-profile tournament golf.  Is this any different than the venue selection for live musical performances?

If Michael Jackson unretired again, it would no doubt be to perform a Stadium Tour.  When Hell Froze Over, you weren't able to catch the Eagles at a Hard Rock Live or House of Blues, halls built from the ground up to provide great sightlines and stellar acoustics.

What was your favorite concert?  For me, it wasn't the Grateful Dead or Huey Lewis at the Met Center (where the Mall of America now sits).  The music was recognizable, but hardly sounded good.

Two internet companies pooled their money (I think this is an example of burn!) and invited about 1000 people for a Hootie and the Blowfish corporate gig during the PGA Show a few years ago.  I was fortunate enough to attend.  Got to see Bryan Adams on a Universal Studios soundstage with less than 100 people in attendance.  When in Denmark, saw the Rainmakers in a small bar/concert hall with probably 400 packing the house.  (Talked to them afterwards.  They said missing the NFL games on TV was a small price to pay for performing live for fans who loved them.  Some in the audience had come from NORWAY to see them in Copenhagen.)

Compare that to some of the outdoor shows I've seen with 50,000 faithful, Stadium concerts like Elton John and Billy Joel in front of 35,000 or more, and arena shows that sell out at about 15,000.  Hard to imagine Neil Diamond going on the road and playing for 2,000.  Does that imply the Enormodome (bonus point if you catch that movie reference) is a better venue than Hard Rock Live?  Similarly, maybe Hazeltine, Mt. Juliet, and the Belfry are just suitable for events of that stature.

One time there was a scheduling confict in both Tampa and Orlando.  Instead of the Ice Palace or O-rena, I got to see the Pumpkins play in front of just 4,000 in a sold out Lakeland Center.  Yep, that thing across from the newspaper if you've ever been there.  Between songs Corgan joked about it, but - for those in attendance - it was a nice chance to see the greatest rock group of the late 90s in an intimate setting.  Garbage opened, before Shirley Manson captured everyone's attention.

Think about your favorite concerts.  60,000 at Alpine camping out under the stars for a chance to see Jerry?  Crammed into the Silverdome to see the Jacksons Reunion Tour?  While Jermaine and Tito may have put you in a state of shock, I'm sure you had just as much fun seeing U2 before they were U2[/i] or catching Dave Matthews in Richmond, which I've been told any Spider did at a campus bar if they were there at the right time.

I went to a Holiday show at the H.O.B. where I knew the headliner.  Just $10.  He billed it with Special Guests, but I had no idea who.  Imagine my surprise - and thrill - when Kenny came out and performed an acoustic version of "All for You".  Like so many great musical moments, the emotion of that setting can never be recreated, and certainly wouldn't have happened in Chicago Stadium or some large Fairgrounds.

Bottom line is I've quit looking for courses on Ran's "Next Fifty" or the GOLF Magazine World Top 100 to host such high profile events.  Just like you'd expect Pearl Jam to skip your favorite concert hall in favor of some NHL rink with something covering the ice.

[Rick Shefchik]

John -- I think you're exactly right about this, which is why I'm hoping in this century the USGA and the PGA both develop their own event courses, in various parts of the country -- big, versatile courses that can handle the crowds, the tents and the traffic, expand to whatever length is necessary and still contain the kind of interesting architectural features that make golf more than just an exhibition of ballstriking.

The smaller classic course can then be left alone, to host occasional limited-field events if they so choose.

All I remember about the Belfrey is #10, #18 and some extremely close and engaging Ryder Cup finishes.

By the way, my favorite concert was seeing Gram Parsons and Emmylou Harris at Max's Kansas City in NYC in the spring of 1973. There were probably about 150 people in the room.

[allysmith]

Rick,

The idea of Stadia courses is well under way in both the US and europe with both governing bodies owning courses.

The problem with the Ryder Cup is that it is a national PGA event and not a 'tour run' event.

This is why the cow pasture that is the Belfry is used so often it is the PGA Headquarters.

I think the US have been far more adventurous in their course choice.

In the coming years we will visit the K-Club and Glen Eagles (SPGA Headquarters)

I think that in europe the Ryder Cup is seen as a money spinner and not a purist challenge.

By the way I saw Jack Bruce(Cream) in a pub in Perth absolutely brilliant and only 60 people.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

John

Great post, and spot on.  I think we tilt at windmills if we try to force major entertainment events such as Ryder Cups or  Atomic Kitten concerts back to the venues of our (or our grandparents') youth.  We do get lucky from time to time in chance encounters such as catching Jack Bruce at Perth or pros playing remote courses with small entourages, but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Much as I hate to admit defeat in my hopes that the R&A might have the cojones to take an Open to Rye, for example, I am resigning myself to at least a few more decades of Bollinger tents filling the gaps (and the vistas) between  holes at major events.

Rich

PS--I saw Cream 2-3 times at the Fillmore and/or Winterland in SF in the 67-68 period, with about 400 of my closest friends, playing with (I think) the Animals and Chuck Berry, each of whom did 2 one hour sets.  That was the norm in those days.  I'd love to have those days back for my daughters (and even me!) but I am not counting on it, anymore than I am counting on having a Ryder Cup at Pine Valley in the near future.  Ob la di, ob lah dah, ob lah daaaaah, lad di dah di life goes on.............

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Isn't the Open a major entertainment event? I attended the Ryder Cup at Muirfield Village it seemed to hold up well on all fronts....and who could forget Benny Goodman at the Cow Pallace in '34.

[Ken_Cotner]

I'm beginning to seriously like this somewhat tongue-in-cheek idea of keeping the majors away from the classic courses!  Wait a minute, I just thought about it again -- majors on new soulless monsters means TV exposure means more bad examples for greens committees around the country.

I'm so confused!!  Someone help...  

To continue the music venue parallel, my favorite shows were:
Lucinda Williams and Kasey Chambers -- 50-seat club (maybe like seeing the Curtis Cup at PV?)
Dave Alvin and Damnations TX -- club with capacity of 100 (Walker Cup at Merion?  British Am at Westward Ho?)
Richard Thompson -- 300-seat theatre
Los Lobos -- 400-seat theatre (both of these like seeing the USAm at Cypress?)

The only exception to the above was Bruce Springsteen in the only arena show I've been to in 20+ years (the Open at St. Andrews?).

Rick, I'm jealous of your GP/Emmylou show.  But I DID get to talk to Emmylou on her tour bus (like PLAYING Cypress with some good friends)  

KC

[THuckaby2]

I don't have many good contributions to add to the best concert ever seen list....you guys would laugh and ridicule me to know end if you read what I found "great" in terms of music... but....

I was there for the 1981 Walker Cup at Cypress Point.  One day.  Talk about turning the golf light on.... I also have played Cypress twice, both times with good friends...

Is that up there with jamming with Springsteen in his home studio?  Well, to me it was... And spending two days at Sand Hills was like sitting in with Hendrix, Joplin, Morrisson and Beethoven.


Great thoughts in any case, JC.

TH

[John_Conley]

So at least a couple guys "try to see it my way" (had to, with the Ob-la-dee already thrown out by Rich).  

Rick:

The PGA Tour has done exactly that with their TPC network, no?  Also, isn't Windsong an example of one being built in this century?  Plenty of room to park cars nearby.  It's like Hazeltine forty years later.

Everyone's favorite concerts seem to be involving a few hundred in the crowd.  If we're so quick to accept it when bands tour, why are so many upset when golf goes the same way?

Rock on.

[J_Olsen]

Ken Cotner, I nominate you for the GCA Good Taste in Music award. Great stuff! I remember seeing Stevie Ray Vaughan open for the Allman Brothers in 1981 or so at a very small place. What a memory.

As for the premise of this thread, is it serious or not? Are you guys really saying that you would rather see big events played on courses that can hold a lot of people because it is easier for the fans to get around?

Doesn't anybody think that mediocre courses may not provide the same opportunities for exciting play. My two cents would be that many of the best courses in the world are superb match play courses because of the quality of their holes.

The Canadian golf writer Lorne Rubenstein decried the loss of stature of the Canadian Open as an event during its most recent playing and attributed a good deal of that loss of stature to its migration to venues that were more spectator-friendly, but less conducive to exciting golf.

Ultimately, golf events are really television products and the best interests of the tours are served by playing important events on venues that will generate the most exciting play.

[John_Conley]

As for the premise of this thread, is it serious or not? Are you guys really saying that you would rather see big events played on courses that can hold a lot of people because it is easier for the fans to get around?

Very serious.  I have accepted that the Ryder Cup isn't coming to "the club at the end of the street" (Thanks Bernie!) any time soon.

Would I rather?  I've given up such a quixotic notion.  Fact is the venue needs to accomodate a number of corporate tents and huge crowds.  I'd love to see Tiger Woods play a head-to-head match with Paddy at Portmarnock, Sergio and Calcavecchia at Sand Hills, or Mickelson against Bernhard Langer or Tobias Dier in the Black Forest of Germany or Berlin.

Now show me a viable plan to make it happen.  You'll quickly see they don't make economic sense.

[Dan Kelly]

The Cavern Club. Liverpool. Rainy night in '62. Just me, the boys and a bartender. Can't remember his name.

Good thoughts, John -- though I'd prefer to keep open the option of dispensing with the tents and limiting attendance. I know: Ain't gonna happen, Jack!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

John
Is there a greater demand for corporate tents at the Ryder Cup as compared to the British or US Open? Isn't the attendance at the Ryder Cup much smaller than either of those events? What does quixotic mean?

[THuckaby2]

Cavern club, smavern club, DK.  Those guys never amounted to anything.

Salzburg, Austria:  1766.  Just me, the king and a bratty ten year old, banging out tunes on the piano.  Pretty cool that he took a bunch of my ideas.

TH

[Ken_Cotner]

J Olsen,

I actually am serious.  I think I now believe that how exciting a match or tournament is has very little to do with the golf course!  This may be due to the exceptional quality level of the players.  Without going back and doing a bunch of research   , it just seems to me that the quality of the COMPETITION is just as likely to be very good at an "inferior" course as at a "classic".  Likewise for a boring competition.

Parallels for me:  seeing Steve Earle in a parking lot; Emmylou in a hotel ballroom; heck, Springsteen in an arena.

KC

[SL_Solow]

Tom; you neglected to mention that Shirley MacClain was your date.  For me Count Basie with Sarah Vaughn and Sammy Davis, outdoors in a benefit in Freeport Grand Bahamas followed closely by Stan Getz in a bar at the Copely Plaza in Boston

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dan,

What a coincidence, I frequented the Cavern Club myself back then!  Liked this band called the Quarrymen.  Don't know whatever happened to them, though.

[THuckaby2]

SL - classic!  Oh yes, she was and she was indeed quite attractive.  I also looked damn good in a wig.

My apologies to one and all for the smart-ass inclusions, I'm just having fun here... given I have little to contribute that really occurred, I'm just letting the imagination run wild!

My musical education is sadly lacking.  

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Ken Cotner wrote: "I think I now believe that how exciting a match or tournament is has very little to do with the golf course!  This may be due to the exceptional quality level of the players.  Without going back and doing a bunch of research    , it just seems to me that the quality of the COMPETITION is just as likely to be very good at an 'inferior' course as at a 'classic'.  Likewise for a boring competition."

Question: Over the past decade or so -- let's say: since 1990 -- which of the four majors has had the least impressive (to Classical eyes) lineup of courses?

Answer: the PGA Championship. No question, right?

Question: Over the past decade or so -- let's say: since 1990 -- which of the four majors has had the most consistently exciting competitions?

Answer (off the top; without having done any research into it): the PGA Championship? Seems to me that the PGA has had a whole line of really exciting, down-to-the-wire, nail-biter finishes -- and that the other three have been less predictably exciting.

[Mr. GeeOhhBee]

Belfly blows.

[Rick Shefchik]

Dan -- You're right, I believe. If there are three courses less esteemed on the major championship rota than the Belfry, Valhalla and Hazeltine, I can't think of what they are right now. But each has produced extremely memorable golf.

Here's a proposal, however: Keep the stroke-play majors away from our classics, but continue to play the match play tournaments at the classic old courses and reduce the attendance (I have no idea how this will be accomplished while simultaneously raking in enough cash to compensate the top players in a manner to which they are accustomed -- but we're been doing some fantasizing here, anyway.)

There's no need to lengthen a golf course for match play, because no final scores are posted and therefore no club membership stands to be embarrassed by the pros shooting a bunch of 62s. In a perfect world, the Ryder Cup would play at venues like Merion, Cypress, Pine Valley, Ballybunion, Dornoch and Royal County Down, limiting attendance to 10,000. If Tiger or Sergio don't want to play, I'll watch anyway.

[Brian_Ewen]

John
As you say , there has been a lot of similar threads on the subject and I believe a lot of GCA'ers (inc. Mr Doak no less ) have been convinced that pro's and their high profile tournaments should be kept off  'Classic Courses' . I gave an example in, the negative effect the Walker Cup has had on Nairn West . Another should be , How hard it is for the Carnoustie Locals to get a decent tee-time since the 1999 Open.

As for the Belfry , I think Mr Smith is quite hard on the course . Is it a course I really want to play ? , No , but only because I would rather spend my hard earned cash playing a  'Classic' , rather than trying to drive the 10th like Seve. But as a Ryder Cup venue it has given us lots of magic moments . Feel free to shoot me down but I cant think of a more dramatic Ryder Cup hole than the Belfrys 10th.

As for Johns music anology , I can put it in a golf context . I love nothing better than watching an Amatuer Competition , especially at a classic course and spotting stars of the future . For example , I feel privileged to have walked alongside two upcoming golfers , Segio Garcia and Justin Rose in the Jaques Leglise Trophy (A Europe v GB boys comp.) at Royal Aberdeen in 1997 . I think that two , would draw more nowadays than the dozen of us that day.

Brian Ewen

[Dan Kelly]

Rick --

Fantastic thinking.

How do we pay for it? How do we pay for everything in this country? TV. Demand even greater money for TV rights -- to an event that, because of the artificially limited attendance, will gain a cachet of exclusivity. Works for The Masters, doesn't it?

Take all of The Masters' abandoned advertisers, and get them on board. Then: Have the PGA of America and the Euro PGA set up their merchandise tents online -- running a series of commercials advertising the virtual availability of that merchandise during the Ryder Cup (as the R&A does during The Open).

I have a hunch that, in the wake of Enron and Global Crossing and WorldCom and who knows who else, these big corporate expenditures for things like Hospitality Tents are going to come under increased scrutiny, anyway. Perhaps the Tent Era will be coming to a blessed end, sooner than we might have dreamed.

Call me Pollyanna.

[THuckaby2]

Dan - you're Pollyanna.  You're welcome.  

Actually I don't think you are such by the meaning of that term - you have me sold that this can happen.

The thought of a Walker Cup at Sand Hills is just too good to even contemplate... my God would I love to see the top ams battle it out at that wonderful golf course.  Unfortunately given the fragile land. there could be literally ZERO spectators allowed, and even the placement of TV equipment would likely be too damaging.  So alas, it can never happen.  But, dare to dream.

The "pc" realities of life have ruled out Cypress Point, also, unfortunately...

But, there are many other great classic sites that just might work for such things, if spectators/corporate tents are kept down and TV rights jacked up.  Pine Valley?  

As for the negative effect of hosting events like this, fine - that is very real as Nairn and others show.  So put it at places where this isn't an issue... where it ain't gonna matter what the effect is, as very few people see the courses before and no more will see such afterward... like NGLA... Pine Valley... etc.  Any sense to this?

TH

[Brian_Ewen]

Tom

Very interesting ,You see  maybe I am a bit of a hypocrite but I would hate to see the Open Championship go anywhere but the likes of Turnberry , Troon , Muirfield ,Old Course etc. , but I treat them as they have been already spoiled , spoiled but no point in wasting them  .

I would put Pine Valley in my spoilt list , as it is just so hard to get on , and if you are playing there, you really arent going to be worried of the cost . So yes I would love to see a Major at Pine Valley , but how many spectators would you get on the course ?. Anybody know ?.

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

The Open is a different kettle of fish, as they say, by my take.  I'm with you - I wouldn't want to mess with the rota, although I would like to see it at either RC Down or Royal Portrush, just to get it into Ireland.  In my perfect world I'd like to have that happen in one, united Ireland... but I'll stay away from the politics there!  This is the dream for me... and given the Sr. Opens there, it looks like the R&A is considering it.  Outside of that, the re-addition of Hoylake seems wise, wouldn't you say?  I wouldn't take the Open to places beyond this though - you have enough gems on the rota as it is.  And given access is quite difficult - and guest fees quite expensive - at each of these places as it is, I can't see how hosting an event there would "ruin" anything at any of these places either....

Here in the US, I don't know the logisitics of Pine Valley as I have not seen the inside of those gates.  But the point is, spectators aren't going to matter... we limit it to whatever is doable, then hike up the TV fees to make up for the lost revenue.  TV will do it for Pine Valley no doubt.... then no harm is done also as it won't make a lick of difference to that club if it's seen on TV!

Of course the several regulars here who are indeed intimate with the workings of PV will likely shoot this down for many reasons... I am just working with the obvious, with absolutely no knowledge of the club itself.

So if not Pine Valley, there are many other exclusive, private, classic courses that would indeed be fun to see a competition on...  just speaking in the abstract, of course.

On the other hand I do see the point of this thread... and if none of this ever happens, the golf world will go on just fine.  A Walker Cup at Sand Hills isn't going to add to or subtract from the incredible experience I had there with some great people, for example.

It would just be fun to see - ON TELEVISION.

TH

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