[TEPaul]

Monday and Tuesday I played two Pittsburgh area courses that were truly delightful and a wonderful study in architectural styles and styles of an era.

Rolling Rock G.C. in Ligonier and Fox Chapel in Pittsburgh.

The Ross nine at Rolling Rock (1917) is a wonderful study in fairly early Ross with some of the most unusual Ross greens I've ever seen! A few of the most unique greens I've almost ever seen, period. The most interesting ones with exclamation points for emphasis are #2!, #3!!!!, #4!!, #7!, #8!!

Fox Chapel, a Raynor course (recently held the Curtis Cup) is a very special place and very special architecture. The bunkering, green shapes and putting surfaces are classic Raynor at his best, I'm sure!

I'll go into the holes and greens and bunkering in detail later! The course has recently been restored or redone by Brian Silva. The bunkering, particularly greenside bunkering is probably as "architecturally" penal as I've seen with a number  of the almost vertical grass bunker faces sometimes 7-8 feet high!

But the prevalence of raised angular greens and particularly a large number of the green surfaces are the real stars of the course! I can hardly imagine greens that would be more fun to play to and putt on day in and day out!

And that #17, Biarritz--OhmyGod, what a thing that is and they've just recently restored (?) the front end (before the dip) to green!! I'm fairly spatial but trying to estimate the size of that green now is tough. It could be as much as 13,000-15,000 sf!

That entire area around both Rolling Rock and Fox Chapel is also about as pretty generally as anything I've ever run across!

[Dan_Belden]

Tom Paul:

   Isn't Fox Chapel great.  And what a job Brian Silva did.  I posted on GCA a while back what a find Fox Chapel is.  Phenomenal job, and a phenomal course that is easily on par with Camargo.  

[TEPaul]

I think Brian Silva did do a good job--However, I'm calling Brian to see what kind of warranty he left with the club because they must have had one helluva rain storm out there (I'll bet it was that deluge I drove through on my way to Cleveland about ten days ago) causing parts of those incredibly steep vertical grass faces on a number of those bunkers to slide!

There's that and frankly, I can't imagine how half the membership at Fox Chapel can hit their bunker shots over a number of those vertical faces! Some of those faces give new meaning to the idea of "avoid the bunkers"!

I love it!

[JohnV]

Tom, first let me say I'm upset that you came to Pittsburgh and didn't get in touch (of course you might not have known that I moved here, so I'll forgive you this time.)  Since I only got here 5 weeks ago, I haven't had the chance to see either of these yet (other than a drive by of Fox Chapel).  Fox Chapel is the closest course to my new office and we are having a dinner over there later this month so I hope to see more of it soon.  I think there are a lot of courses here in the Pittsburgh area that might have been overlooked.  I'll probably be seeing most of them in the next year and will report.  My boss has spoken highly of the Ross nine at Rolling Rock and I also look forward to seeing it.

If I get a chance today, I'll scan in the picture of the 17th from the Curtis Cup program and post it here.

[George Pazin]

I had the opportunity to walk Fox Chapel during the Curtis Cup back in August & was blown away. I have instructed my wife, who is a Fox Chapel high school teacher, to give preferential treatment to any student whose parents are members.

Do you still contend that 17 is not green before the dip? I stood there & it sure looked like green to me.

JohnV - I have a couple dozen photos that I took during the event, as well as photos scanned from my program, showing before & after restoration. If I email them to you, could you post them? I tried using a Yahoo free site, but it was quickly overwhelmed by the onslaught of GCA participants.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeP:

#17 at Fox Chapel now is green space before the dip! At the Curtis Cup it may have been too, not sure about that, though! I did go around the course when I was out there officiating at the PA Amateur in early August and the front section was apparently being transitioned to green space but was not exactly usable as green space at that time, I don't think. At that point it looked more to me like the very closely mown chipping areas you see in front of some of the greens at Merion now. But yesterday the front section definitely was green space (as well as the dip!).

But the point is in the last month or two the club has decided to take the front section back to green space for the first time in many decades (if it ever really was that way).

I'm not certain about this but my feeling has been if a Biarritz green has the long greenside bunkers that come all the way out to the front section (before the dip) it's logical to conclude that the green was designed to have front green space (before the dip).

If those bunkers start at the dip it's logical to conclude that the green space was designed to start at the dip (and was not intended to have green space before the dip).

Piping's Rock's bunkering starts at the dip and it's never had front green space! But at Fox Chapel's #17 the right bunker comes all the way to the front section (before the dip). The left bunker starts now at the dip but you can see from old aerials (and very much on the ground) where the original left bunker used to go (before the dip and in line, perpendicularly) with the right bunker.

I don't know if the club plans on restoring the left bunker back to start where it used to but they should, in my opinion!

There clearly will be an additonal issue in that regard though, (there always is) with player access and egress to the green, particularly as the #18 tee is off the green to the high left!

Players and the club will probably not want to restore the length of the left bunker for that reason (too far to walk around it at either end- and no one wants to walk through the bunker on the way to the next tee!).

I think there is an easy compromise solution though (albeit maybe not original) and that would be to create a small grass walkway through the left bunker AT THE DIP so players could walk off the green there on the way to #18 tee!

That would break the enormously long left bunker into two sections (originally it probably was 70 yards long) but that would be a small price to pay to have the left bunker along side the new (or restored) front green section!

[SPDB]

Tom

what did you think of Silva's complement at Rolling Rock?

[Dave_Miller]

Tom:
Glad to see Fox Chapel get some good "PUB".
(Not that it needs it).
 
Fox Chapel IMHO is one of the great tracks in Pennsylvania.

Maybe overshadowed by its more famous neighbor Oakmont but a great golf course.

Best

Dave

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Honestly not much at all! But by saying that I do not mean  to criticize Brian Silva!

I can only say two possible things about the new nine.

1/ It would be immensely difficult, if not impossible, in any case, to build a nine on that topography that could in any way have complemented or matched Ross's original nine holes!

2/ Another nine holes just should not have been attempted there (if the club or Brian was in any way really trying to match or complement the original Ross nine).

The overall slope on that portion of Rolling Rock is too severe for old fashioned types of holes and architecture and a number of the new holes are "shelved" or "stepped" into the terrain (something Ross never could have done)!

Some of the views are spectacular and most of the holes do have some real interest in playability and strategy but not much like the old ones do and the new ones certainly don't look much of anything like the old ones do. But frankly, given that topography I can't see any way that they ever could have.

An architect like Ross in 1917 NEVER could have built a nine  where the new nine is and that's probably what the club should have considered, if they cared about that kind of thing at all!

Apparently, there may be better ground for golf on the other side of the old nine but a Mr. Mellon would not allow it there as it might have affected his view, or something of that nature.

It should be said that Rolling Rock Club is definitely one of the most amazing clubs and places I've seen in my life! Golf is by no means all that goes on there with all the other things the Rolling Rock Club was created for. Hunting and fishing are as important, I'm sure, and always have been, as probably are dining and such or just relaxing in an otherworldly relaxing atmosphere! Riding, steeplechasing and fox hunting may have been at one time but apparently no longer!

It's amazing to consider but I was told that originally the Rolling Rock club encorporated somethng between 25,000-45,000 acres of land!

And if you want to see what real true style--old world style--is all about, in every single imaginable way, you'd have to search the world to find much to top the Rolling Rock club!!

[SPDB]

Tom - agreed on all your points about RRC. It was really a losing proposition for any architect to come in and there and try to complement Ross and on such an extreme piece of land.

Did you make it to Laurel Valley while you were there?

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

I had lunch only at Laural Valley when I got to Ligonier but I was one of those who chose to play Rolling Rock over Laural Valley.

So I didn't see Laural Valley except to look out the window at it! It's a lovely place like Rolling Rock and that entire era.

Laurel Valley was Dick Wilson (1960) but according to those there has been much changed by Arnold Palmer!

I certainly can't compare the two golf courses but can only say, again, I'm delighted I picked Rolling Rock to play!

[JohnV]

As promised earlier today, here is an aerial shot of the 17th at Fox Chapel.  George, send me your pictures and I'll put some up if there is interest.  Spoke with someone today and I hear that Fox Chapel is having to rebuild a bunch of the grass faces on the bunkers because they are so steep they are collapsing.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

On the grass faces of Fox Chapel collapsing, see my post of 10/8/11;14pm! They aren't exactly collapasing on their own--it was due to one hellacious rain storm!

[TEPaul]

There's something wrong with that photo of #17 Fox Chapel! The dimensions of the bunkering and the front green space vs the rear green space is off somehow--maybe way off!

[Mike]

In response to a few questions about Fox Chapel GC: the green at 17 was indeed green before the dip when the course was built - it was restored to putting quality early this year (it had been attempted before but abandoned due to maintenance difficulty) - however, the USGA loved the idea of restoring it for the Curtis Cup and it was in good putting shape as early as June.  It was indeed a green before the dip (known as "The Valley of Tears" to locals) for the Curtis Cup, although the USGA never used it for a hole location during the Match.

Brian Silva and Agriscape did indeed renovate all 88 or so bunkers at FCGC last fall and early winter.  Brian also has consulted on some other restoration (restoring the 7th to an Alps, for example) and tree management issues.  There indeed have been some problems with the steep faces of the bunkers and heavy stroms have caused some collapses - the solution has been to create drains above the slopes that get the heaviest drainage from rain.  It is still a work in progress.

Overall, the reaction to the restored bunkers has been fantastic - I for one love the consistent contour of all of the bunkers.  They are no deeper than in the past, but the slopes are steeper (45 to 60 degrees) so playing a shot should be no more difficult than in the past unless you are right up against the slope and therefore have to hit it straight up in the air to even get on the green (forget about controlling the distance or getting up and down like you used to be able to do).

FCGC is a great place, a highly enjoyable and great test on a day in, day out basis.

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