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Lester_Bernham

Muirfield Tops New List
« on: October 10, 2002, 01:38:51 PM »
Muirfield's best of the best
By Bob Warters , Golfmagic.com
  
Muirfield - No.1 again.
 

Muirfield, the course that, together with some horrendous weather, tamed Tiger Woods at this year’s Open Championship, is the best in Britain and Ireland.
And that’s official – according to the Golf World magazine Top 100 – the recognised biennial survey in which experts nominate the game’s outstanding courses in these isles.

The judges, who included the R&A Secretary Peter Dawson, former Ryder Cup captain Bernard Gallacher, PGA chief Sandy Jones and golf course architect Dave Thomas, rated this classic Scottish links the best by a clear margin.

Royal County Down, near Newcastle, Northern Ireland came second. It earned its accolade, not only for its testing holes but for its stunning location, in the shadow of the Mountains of Mourne.


The judges, who also included European Tour pro Ronan Rafferty and Sky Presenter Ewen Murray and ex-Walker Cup captain Peter McEvoy, marked the courses on quality of design and test, fairness and presentation, visual appeal and enjoyment and ambience and history.

Strangely The De Vere Belfry’s Brabazon course which hosted Europe’s historic Ryder Cup victory and the annual Benson and Hedges International has been voted off the top 100.

And neither The Celtic Manor, which stages the 2010 event nor the Gleneagles PGA Centenary course, made it in as new entries.

Among the courses which vaulted up towards the top of the ladder since the last survey, were St Andrews Old (from 8 to 4) Woodhall Spa’s Hotchkin course (from 14 to 5) and Kingsbarns in Fife (straight to No.13).

Other courses making the top 100 for the first time were: Woburn Marquess (59), The Wisley (64), Donegal (66), Tenby (76), Nefyn (83), Luffness (89), Southport & Ainsdale (91), West Hill (95), Tralee ((96), Enniscrone (97) and Old Head of Kinsale (99).

Biggest jumpers were Brancaster (up 28 35), Rye (Up 27 to 50) and Sunningale New (up 22 to 28), while the tumblers included Machrihanish (down 25 to 65), Gullane No.1 (down 25 to 78) and Southerness (down 24 to 84).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2002, 02:05:46 PM »
Is there anywhere on the web where we can see the entire list?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lester_Bernham

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2002, 02:12:42 PM »
Jeff
I doubt it . The full list hasnt been released yet , as it will be in the November issue of Golf World , released next week.

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Jeff_Lewis (Guest)

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2002, 03:10:22 PM »
Are you in the UK? Any chance I can ask you to send me a copy when it comes out? or fax me the articles and list? I would appreciate it very much.
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Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2002, 09:31:48 AM »
I wish another course would occasionally win the top spot!  It's about as predictable as Golf's Top 100 (World).

I love Woodhall Spa, but 5th is a bit OTT.

Donegal (Murvagh) is way too high in my opinion.  Some fine holes there, but plenty of mundane flat ones too.

Wonder where Loch Lomond is?  Hopefully not at #3 again!

Some of the other moves are pretty good: Rye should be much higher still, Brancaster deserved the move up too as did Sunningdale New.  

But surprised Machrihanish dropped so far??  Gullane is now about right in my mind.

I'm sure they're wrong about The Wisley, it has definitely been listed before: modern Trent Jr course, not sure how good it is.

Good to see The Belfry bite the dust.

Why no Addington and Pennard  ???

Kingsbarns may well deserve such a high placing too.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2002, 09:31:57 AM »
I wish another course would occasionally win the top spot!  It's about as predictable as Golf's Top 100 (World).

I love Woodhall Spa, but 5th is a bit OTT.

Donegal (Murvagh) is way too high in my opinion.  Some fine holes there, but plenty of mundane flat ones too.

Wonder where Loch Lomond is?  Hopefully not at #3 again!

Some of the other moves are pretty good: Rye should be much higher still, Brancaster deserved the move up too as did Sunningdale New.  

But surprised Machrihanish dropped so far??  Gullane is now about right in my mind.

I'm sure they're wrong about The Wisley, it has definitely been listed before: modern Trent Jr course, not sure how good it is.

Good to see The Belfry bite the dust.

Why no Addington and Pennard  ???

Kingsbarns may well deserve such a high placing too.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2002, 01:33:21 PM »
I don't care what their list says.

Royal County Down is the best course in the British Isles.

By a significant margin, too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2002, 01:34:22 PM »
The next best course in the Isles is Turnberry.



As far as Muirfield is concerned, it's a course I RESPECT, but I do not LIKE it.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2002, 02:14:25 PM »
Paul

RCD is my fave too but I don't agree that it's clear cut or there's any significant margin.  T

Turnberry is one I haven't played yet, but from TV... I'm doubtful that it would be in my top 10-15 from Britain and Ireland.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2002, 02:32:39 PM »
Paul:

Then you need to make a trip to Turnberry!

If you are basing your thoughts on the courses strictly by
television, I highly doublt Royal County Down would be in your top 10-15 either since the Senior Opens that were played there the last few years only broadcast the last 3 holes or so.  In effect, you miss most of the charming holes and can't appreciate how well it all works together!

Turnberry is really that good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ed_battye

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2002, 02:46:18 PM »
Paul_T; I agree with you on the Belfry and you are correct that the Wisley has been ranked previously, although suspiciously high. I am also suprised that Machrihanish has dropped so far and am also dissapointed to see Southerness fall sharply. However I would disagree with you on Woodhall Spa,  The Hotckin holds strong at #5.

Jeff; where does Ganton stand this year?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2002, 03:03:48 PM »
Ed

It's an age since I played Southerness and I have very fond but hazy memories of the course.  For me, the 12th was the obvious standout hole with the green seemingly miles away on the Solway Firth and I think I remember a strong 16-18 finish.  It was also a pretty difficult course as I remember-very tough rough.

But I still think W Spa is too high.  To my eye, there are several heath courses around London that are equal and a few possibly slightly better: Swinley, Walton Heath, West Sussex, Sunningdale(s), Addington and probably St Georges Hill (although I haven't played this one).  But the bunkers are peerless at W Spa.

I actually recently found a 1914 review of Woodhall Spa and the holes described sound very similar to the current holes.  This was about a decade before Hotchkin was involved, so I wonder how much of the current course is actually Colt's?  I can forward if you're interested.
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brad_miller

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2002, 03:35:05 PM »
Paul, I have played Turnberry over 15 times and beautiful as it is especially #'s 7-11 it just isn't that good. Top 10 maybe, number 1-3 don't think so, but that's just my take. Give me RCD, TOC, RPortrush, RD.....
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Joe Andriole

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2002, 04:23:06 PM »
I was fortunate to make an extended visit to Britain this year and for the first time in my 20 or so visits actually played more inland than links courses.  These included Walton Heath,Sunningdale,Berkshire,Wentworth, Notts, Alwoodley, Moortown,Ganton and Woodhall Spa.  Woodhall Spa in my opinion is the class of the lot and Notts would be a somewhat distant second.  The Course lav\cks the seaside drama of the great links courses but the turf and playing characteristics are superb and very superior to Ganton not so far away.  The bunkering which is well detailed on this site's course review is extraordinary.  The green complexes are interesting and there's a wonderful variety of holes, many with appropriate length for today's technology.  I'm not sure it's the 5th best course in the isles but I'm not sure I can name 10 better and I've been lucky enough to play 82 on the 2000 list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2002, 05:06:45 PM »
brad:

When you say:
>I have played Turnberry over 15 times and beautiful as it is especially #'s 7-11 it just isn't that good

Now if you had said "the first three holes at Turnberry are not that inspiring, so I think it should be ranked only 10th on the list", then I would think we might understand each other.

It is obvious that you and I are not going to agree on much, as far as good golf goes.  To me, this stretch is really incredible.  #9 and #10 are two of the best back-to-back long four pars ANYWHERE.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2002, 05:34:32 PM »
JGAndriole

What did you think of the actual green surfaces at W Spa?  Their relative flatness is the usual criticism of the course.  But perhaps even moderately contoured greens would be too demanding for a course with such severe bunkers?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2002, 05:40:48 PM »
Paul. thought that is what I said, 7-11 are darn good, and 9 and 10 are probably the best 2 holes,  but as you said Turnberry opens with a fizzal and I believe it also closes with one. This IMO is not what the best of the BI has to offer. If you use the RM match play system there are many better courses in the BI's, this method althougth laughed at by many does force you to think of the flow and location of the best holes a course may offer. As another example, if given 10 rounds at Turnberry or TOC I would choose to play TOC 8-2 over Turnberry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2002, 05:55:29 PM »
brad:

thanks for explanation.

to me, Turnberry is just plain special.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

David_Elvins

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2002, 08:22:38 AM »

TOC goes from 8 to 4.  Most world rakings have it in their top ten, don't they?
 
Any comments on where it should rate in the Isles?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2002, 09:19:37 AM »
Paul R

I'm with you on Turnberry.  When I first visited Scotland, I thought that it ranked with Muirfield and Dornoch as clearly ahead of the rest of the pack.  I haven't changed this opinion in the intervening 24+ years, except to (sometimes, when the mood strikes) put Carnoustie in that pantheon.

Brad M

Your take on the 1st at Turnberry is the conventional wisdom, but to me that hole will always be something very special as it was the first links golf hole I ever played on April 25, 1978 and I can still visualize, feel, touch, hear and smell that place and that moment--it was very much a "you're not in Kansas anymore!" sort of experience.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ralph Livingston

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2002, 09:34:55 AM »
Anybody know what the criteria of the ratings was based on? Was it strictly the course or do they factor in club/clubhouse?

As an aside, most of the Honourable Company members I know have said they think North Berwick is a better (or their favorite) course.
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Lester_Bernham

Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2002, 11:32:09 AM »
Ralph
No idea but the magazine is due out Wed. , if you are in the UK.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Andriole

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2002, 05:55:39 PM »
Paul- I don't think that the greens at Woodhall are flat at all.  They tend toward the smaller side  compared to the larger links courses but there is plenty of movement and from recent experience are maintained at greater speeds.  On another note the GW rankings, I believe, represent the opinions of 5 experts and that small panel changes.  This would explain the relatively large fluctuations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Andriole

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Re: Muirfield Tops New List
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2002, 05:58:15 PM »
Ralph- Put me among those that prefer North Berwick as a pure golf experience to Muirfield.  Lunch might be another matter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

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An auld water-meadie No.1? I don't think so!
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2002, 07:52:11 PM »
My take vs. Golf World's take on UK/Ireland courses has always been so disparate that I don't know what to make of it. For example, compare my 50 favorite courses to date vs. Golf World's 2000 rankings. As highlighted below in red, 17 of the 50 are at least 20 spots apart (and that's a pretty darn high percentage):

1. St. Andrews (Old) (Golf World's 2000 ranking #8
2. Royal County Down (#2)
3. Ballybunion Old (#6)
4. Royal St. George's (#15)
5. Royal Dornoch (#9)
6. Royal Portrush Dunluce (#10)
7. Swinley Forest (#24)
8. Lahinch (#38
9. Rye (#77)
10. Royal North Devon (#79)
11. Muirfield (#1)
12. Waterville (#21)
13. Turnberry (#4)
14. Carnoustie (#12)
15. Royal Lytham (#20)
16. The Addington (#NR)
17. Royal Troon (#22)
18. Portmarnock (#7)
19. West Sussex (#34)
20. Cruden Bay (#42)
21. Rosse's Point (#45)
22. Walton Heath Old (#19)
23. Porthcawl (#30)
24. St. Enodoc (#59)
25. North Berwick (#65)
26. Woodhall Spa (#14)
27. Brancaster (#63)
28. St. George's Hill (#37)
29. Sunningdale Old (#11)
30. Prestwick (#31)
31. Hoylake (#17)
32. Royal Aberdeen (#26)
33. Royal Birkdale (#6)
34. Loch Lomond (#3)
35. Ganton (#18
36. Royal Ashdown Forest (#85)
37. Gleneagles King (#13)
38. Machrihanish (#40)
39. Saunton East (#25)
40. The European Club (#28
41. Pennard (#NR)
42. Tralee (#NR)
43. Woking (#81)
44. Brora (#NR)
45. Hillside (#54)
46. Nairn (#23)
47. Western Gailes (#36)
48. Portstewart (#66)
49. Skibo (#69)
50. Baltray (#27)
...
200. Old Head (NR either and good for GW)
...
1000. Mt. Juliet (#35)

Though comparing the two rankings is pointless, I am nonetheless amazed at some of the classic designs that Golf World seemingly snubs. I guess it's some luxury when you can dismiss courses like North Berwick and St. Enodoc as "holiday" courses  :-/

Cheers,

PS I would include the first 35 courses on my list among the world top 100, and probably a few of the next courses as well. I haven't played Royal Worlington, Notts, Deal, Formby, and Sunningdale New but can only imagine that they would fare quite nicely too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
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