[Glen_Fergo]

The comments on the Oz sand belt courses are very interesting. Remember that we have had a drought down here for some 18 months or so and although Melbourne still gets its fair share of rain it is nowhere near the amount it normally gets in winter. The sand belt courses are famous for their drainage because of the sand.

Also remember that it is rare that you get to play these courses without some deal of wind. Possibly the 240 yd 5 iron was down wind on a hard fairway (some of the others know the gentleman's ability much better than me).

With regards to bump and run at places like Metropolitan on some holes you just have to carry the ball onto the green and if you pitch the ball short of other holes because you can't or won't play the shot through the air you should have to use some judgeement of distance and direction. If everything bounced the same we could leave out one of the most frustrating things in golf "rub of the green" but one of the things that makes the game great.

Greg and other Oz-ers,
Are the Sandbelt courses playing that much shorter simply due to the equipment and balls, or has something changed with respect to turf and maintenance?

Speaking of cricket (of which I know zip), I was listening to a collection from one of my favorite songwriters, Paul Kelly from Oz (Melbourne I think).  There was a nice one which was an homage to a man named Bradman, apparently a cricket star from the 30's.  Was there such a guy?

Ken

[David_Elvins]

Bradman in US terms:

Bradman could be considered the worlds greatest ever sportsman.  His batting average of 99.9 when statisically compared to all other players who have ever played international cricket was once worked out as the equivalent of a baseballer batting .415 for a fifteen year career.

[Ken_Cotner]

Ken
The balls and equipment have made a huge difference but the santa-ana couch has meant the ball does run further than it used to.
The Open at Victoria will be very interesting next week. The greens are going to be seriously hard and fast. I played 9 holes with Geoff Ogilvy -60 something on the US Tour this year and one of our best young players- and it is ridiculous how far he hits it.
With the mearest of helping wind on the third he hit and 80 yard sand iron into he 440 yard hole.At the 18th -500 yard par 5 - Driver 9 iron.
Insanity.
Every year he says he has got 10 to 15 yards longer and like most of us he completly despairs at the inability of those who are supposed to be in charge of the game to do anything about it.
Here is a question
John Sloan,one of my design partners ,is in charge of the course set-up for the Open.
The first is a short par four -260 yards- with a relativly small green that is as hard as the other 17 on the course.
The AGU have decided the hole ought to play as a 200 yard par three but there is a deep bunker guarding the front left and a not insignificant bank at the front right that makes it difficult in the extreme to run the ball on.
Slightly downwind last night Ogilvy hit a huge high soft bomb with a 6 iron that landed in the front third of the green and still never looked like staying on.
The question is Do you make the green softer than all the rest so the hole -which is sure to attract a deal of justifiable criticism anyway- is more playable than it is now?
Into the wind it is fine but the most likely wind is from behind.

Bradman?
A God in the world of cricket. He averaged 99.9 per innings when the next best in the games history is about 62.
2 handicap at golf as well.

Mike, thanks for the feedback.

Isn't there a much wider disparity in the abilities of the top players and the average amateur than, say, 20 years ago?  Surely more so than 70 years ago.  The best players are better (for whatever reason), and there are also more hackers today?  Does this make the architect's job harder?

Ken

[Mike Clayton]

Ken
A wider disparity between the best and the average?
I wouldn't have thought so. Twenty years ago Greg Norman was miles better -different game- than the average and its still the same.
The best pro's average 70 -about- and the average amateur is still on 16 or something like that.I would say though that the amateur hasn't taken advantage of the equipment advances the way the pro's have simply because it still comes down to technique.
A lousy swing and a bad grip will do you in with hickory or graphite.
Sounds like i'm disproving my argument.
Are the pro's better now than 20 years ago?
I think that is unanswerable because the drivers make them look so much more impresive.Its so much easier to reproduce a consistant ball flight now.
Great drivers had a real advantage but now everybody out there is a great driver because of the equipment.

[Matt_Cohn]

Just a question.

So is hard and fast really the ideal maintenance meld on a short golf course? We're complaining, rightly, about 500 metres being a driver and a 9-iron. But wouldn't we complain if it was soft too?

I guess with today's equipment, the ideal setup is 7,000 metres and hard as a rock. But Victoria isn't going to grow by 800 metres, so now we've got a golf course that is going to be a good test, but potentially very, very short by pro standards.

So finish this sentence...Victoria should be set up:

a) soft, so it plays longer for the pro's.
b) hard, for the reasons we always talk about on GCA.
c) hard, because we should be concerned about the other 51 weeks of the year, and if it plays too short for the pro's, that's OK.

And, if the ground is rock hard the way we like it, is there anything wrong with a 7,000 metre course where the clubs pro's hit into the greens would be the same clubs they hit on 6,400 metre courses when they're softer?

[Richard_Macafee]

For me, the harder and faster they set up Victoria for the Open, the better. It requires a much greater level of skill off the tee and more thought on approach shots. You are much better off having a 20 foot uphill putt than a 10 ft downhill putt once those greens get quick.

The beauty of setting up Vic hard and fast is that most of their par 4's are doglegs. There will be a decision on just about every tee shot.

Cutting off the doglegs is risky when the fairways are so hard that a tee shot that lands in the middle of the fairway can run through to the trees if not shaped correctly. I believe the player who can shape their tee shots will have an advantage over the "bombers". Double that if the wind gets up!

Also, with hard and fast greens, shorter approach shots are vital, which obviously puts pressure on the player to attack a bit more off the tee. I think it will be a really interesting Open because the course will be played in so many different ways.

BTW Mike, is Ogilvy planning to hit driver on #2 in the Open, and how many do you think he would hit in a round there?

Rich

[Richard_Macafee]

I don't think Howell has a deal with the organizers, he was only announced as a starter about a week ago.

If he had a 2 or 3 year deal starting last year, they would have been plugging him a lot earlier instead of wasting their time trying to convince us that we really want to go and see Kenny Perry!!

I'm glad he is coming, and will definitely be making a point to watch him.

Rich

[Richard_Macafee]

Kingston Heath on the other hand is one of the "straightest" golf courses in the world, we only have 2 genuine dogleg holes on the course, and only 1 hole with trouble in front of the green (a 140yd par.3!).

In theory, the advances in equipment should lead to players destroying it, yet the winner of the past 2 Aust. Opens have both shot -10.

That to me is a triumph of subtle design, fairway shaping and firm and fast conditioning.

It's a tragedy that our great events are being moved away from such great courses to places like The Grand and Moonah Links. Hopefully the inevitable backlash that will follow the first Open at Moonah will steer the events back to their 'homes'.

[NAF]

Mike Clayton/Rich G.  

I can assure you that my 240 yd 5 iron is no joke.  The distinguished Mr. Paul Daley today saw me hit several 300+ yard drives (#18 at C-wealth was a driver/sand wedge (playing downwind) for me playing 440 yards or so)..Not on creatine Rich, but am in the best shape I have been in for a 5'9 160lb soaking wet white guy.  But distance is a relative thing down here, Michael Clayton is right it was just rub of the green...It was the only shot I hit that far in the trip..In reality a 5 iron here would be the club with no wind at about 190-200 yards..And he is also right in that we Americans are so unlucky to be burdened with courses with huge collars around greens and rough.  My handicap would definitely be higher here for a while until I learned to get my game in gear and situated to the local bump and run approaches.  

All I can say is the golf is so much more fun here and although the drought is playing havoc with the course conditioning plus the grasses are coming out of winter hibernation it was pure joy to play down under.  Aussies are the most hospitable people on earth and we have met a lot of members on the courses or in the club houses who were just lovely people.. I think a lot of people here should consider  coming to Melbourne if time and money allow a trip down here.  I played in a Royal Mel Composite tournament yesterday and it was one of the highlights of my golfing career.  Unlimited Golf runs it and I met some great guys (as well as one former Nike tour member who shot something like 72 without breathing heavy)...

My friend J.Reilly and I wondered about the Aussie Open at Victoria.  We saw G. Olgivy practicing a lot of putting at Victoria.  It was playing so short I hope they have a lot of wind to challenge them.  

[Mike Clayton]

Rich
It is such a fiddly course for someone of Ogilvy's length but being a member he knows how to play it.I would think 3 wood would be fine at the second but he hit a driver the other night level with the middle of that bunker way down on the left.Sand-wedge from there.

Mark
I assume Charles is coming because someone is paying him to come.
Ogilvy thought he would be the American most likely to handle the conditions

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Noel

You are living out most of our dreams.  Keep it up!

You and Mike C. are so right about the "collars" of rough around bunkers on most US courses.  They are toxic (to use one of my eldest daughter's phrases) to good and interesting golf.  Can some super, archie, or owner tell me how and why they came to be?

Keep up the good work, and next time you come to Scotland you can bring that 240 yard 5-iron--as long as you don't hit it straight.

[Ken_Cotner]

Mike,

I guess that's what I was thinking -- the talent of the top players may be no different than 20-30 years ago, but the equipment makes the gap larger (the pro can take advantage of the technology much more than the handicap player).

Roll back the ball!

Ken

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()