[wsmorrison]

Flynn's designs are clearly influenced by the collaborative effort at Pine Valley.  Flynn started to utilize PV features starting in 1922 such as segmented fairways, island greens in sandy wastes (Kittansett, Denver CC, Atlantic City, etc), and even a nearly identical 575 yard replica of the 7th with a hell's half acre at Boca Raton South.  Flynn planned on using undulating sandy waste areas (some quite large) at many courses such as Atlantic City, Boca, Indian Creek, Shinnecock, etc.  The waste areas at PV were originally very undulating.  What a great place and time it was in Philadelphia to learn and practice golf architecture.

Tom,
Your piece on the Pennsylvania school and the effect championship golf (Leslie Cup) had on championship designs will be a tremendous boon to our understanding of the genesis of golf architecture in America.  Don't forget to leave them wanting to learn more (from our book!).

[Dave_Miller]

Chip Oat:

My reference to Rolling Green as a hidden gem was intended for those outside the Philly area.

Naturally all us Philly Mafia types have known for many years how good it is.

Torresdale-Frankford could be the true hidden gem but unfortunately on my part it's hearsay as I have never had the opportunity to play there.

Also played Merion again last week.  It just gets better and better every time one sees it.

Best,
Dave

[Mike_Cirba]

Torresdale-Frankford IS a real hidden gem, and even Tom Doak hasn't played it!  

The course is almost ALL well-preserved Ross, with the exception of 17 & 18 (and one other par five on the back - 13 I believe) which where altered a bit when the roadway was widened.  Like many courses in the area, some tree-trimming on a few holes would be appreciated, but there are some SUPERB holes out there, and it features one of the best starts (1,2,3) that I can think of.  The 8th hole is classic, as well.    

I have the club history at home if anyone would like more details.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've wanted to reply, but didn't have the time.  I also agree that Rolling Green is excellent and more difficult than it seems (especially compared to it's CR and slope).

I agree that the area above right #7 should be cleared.  So what if one hole gets slightly easier?  It will be more fun, that's what matters.  The course is hard enough that this one change will not make it a breeze by any means.

#15 needs the trees to be at least cut back, if not a few taken out.  Same with 2nd half of #18.

IMO, the best feature of the course is the set of 5 par 3's.  Good variety in length, from 150 to 243 (uphill).  All have some interesting feature internally within the greens, #16 is gorgeous in it's setting, bunkering, and play (especially using the middle slope to the back half of the green), and #14 is all-world.  14 is a long iron, uphill over the ravine, needing a fade to run along the slope to the pin.  Right is death.

Tough (rolling, of course) greens abound.  #1, #2, right side of #3, #4, #6, right side of#7, #8, #12, #13, left side of #14, #15, and #18.

Only drawback I found was the drive on #8.  Creek crosses at ideal landing area, leaving long uphill approach after 3-wood/iron lay-up tee shot or busting one to try to clear.

[mike_malone]

YOU HAVE gone too far BURROUGHS!!!!
    You are never coming back to Rolling Green..



   (see thread on Honesty)

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

Does this only pertain to Rolling Green or will Scott need to be barred from the Greater Philadelphia area?

GAP can get involved in these kinds of situations and this kind of metting out of justice (after a short open and shut hearing, of course).

If necessary GAP can snatch up his home club (regardless of where that may be!) and disenfranchise Scott from membership and if he persists with these remarks GAP can even remove Scott's aerial rights--even his historic aerial rights!!

GAP has extremely good reciprocity with entities like MapQuest to bring to justice these kinds of people!

[mike_malone]

TEPaul
  I will leave punishment up to you ..I am Quaker and so do not believe in violence

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday;

Pretty darn funny!  

How dare he criticize the location of that creek on the 8th hole!!  NO punishment is too severe for such a transgression...

Too bad medieval tools have gone out of fashion.  

Seriously, though, after reading more of the "Honesty" thread, and knowing some other stories personally and anecdotally, I'm starting to think that we're part of some dark, subversive, organization, which is clearly insane.  

Perhaps we need a secret handshake.    

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

Unfortunately, I too am Quaker, as thou art. GAP itself is fundamentally Quaker as well, so all the three of us can do is  pray silently for this man's soul and eventual redemption.

I see nothing morally wrong, however, in calling Tony Soprano to see how he feels about this situation.

[mike_malone]

TEPAUL
   Did you see the leather jacket Tony was wearing when he was playing golf last week?How can anyone make a proper turn ?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Won't work.  I'm in good with Tony.  'Made' if you will.  I showed him an aerial of his home course and he's eternally grateful, 'cause he spotted a great hidden spot in the woods to bury, I mean dump, "waste".  

Better try Uncle Junior instead.

[TEPaul]

In that case if you're "in" with Tony Soprano, come to Philly anytime you want, play at my club as often as you want, all on me!

As for you, Mayday, I suggest you show some overt respect for Tony too by persuading RGGC to buy about a dozen ducks! I can't remember where a pond is on the golf course so I suggest you get RGGC to make one! And if Tony feels like swinging a golf club with his leather jacket on, who are we to question that?

[HW]

Rolling Green is a great, great course.

And do you know what?  It has a lot of, I mean a really lot of ..............TREES!!!!!  

[chairman]

    You could't be more wrong about #7 at RGGC.  The trees on the right make an easy par 5 at least semi-challenging.  Opening up the right merely creates a huge bail-out area for high and low handicappers. Who needs a bail-out area on an easy par 5?  What's "more fun" about less challenging?  Standard architectural mantra: "It must be challenging to be fun.  Even bad players enjoy tough holes."  The trees create some risk in "going for it" on the second shot.  (See #1 at Stonewall #1 and all the par fives at Stonewall #2.)

[Scott_Burroughs]

Chairman,

Challenging is absolutely NOT the ONLY fun thing about golf.  Hitting a ball 30 yards right of the intended target and watching the natural slope take it down to the green is my idea of fun.  This is also known as OPTIONS, which is actually the #1 mantra of (good) architecture, not challenge.  You have the OPTION of going straight at the green or taking up it high and letting the slope funnel it down.  You also have the option of hitting it high and taking the left front bunker out of play or hitting it low around the bunker on the hill on the right.  Trees negate virtually all options in golf if they encroach upon the intended playing area.

Your view on challenge is why trees were planted in the first place, to take out options and add "challenge", but also add boredom.   Taking out those trees and a few others on the course, such as right of #12, much of first half of #15, right side of teeing area on #9 (so you can see the bunker 250 yards out on the right), right side of #18, will add to the quality of the course, and also (GASP!) add to the ranking of the course!

[Craig Disher]

On #7, the risk could be failing to find the correct line on the hill and having the ball die in the rough on the high side(approximately where the trees and cart path are now), leaving an awkward side hill chip, or finishing on the left side with an delicate pitch over the bunker.

Trees next to the fairway always create risk but to me are far less interesting than ground contours.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chairman;

If I follow your logic, then wouldn't the optimum "challenge" involve digging a pond just in front of the green, or perhaps route that creek to encircle the green, which would require a fully-flighted, high-carrying, Nicklausian second shot for anyone daring to reach the green in two?

Challenge is easy to create;  Fun and options take imagination.  

[chairman]

taking out the trees doesn't provide options. it merely provides a bailout for a missed shot.   your proposal would be a significant improvement to the hole.  unfortunately, it is impractical, not mention prohibitively expensive.  seven is now a birdie hole.  why make it easier??  

[chairman]

i have played merion many times and i think it is over-rated.  the course conditioning makes it difficult.  people praise it because it's the in vogue thing to do and sacriligious.  

[mike_malone]

Fellow GCAers

   If you respond to chairman you will be wasting your time.He lives to stoke the flames.He will not be convinced and is only using you for his amusement.

[TEPaul]

I don't know who chairman is but both he and his opinions are way overrated.

[mike_malone]

TEPaul
   If i told you chairman is an attorney would that clear things up?

[Mike_Cirba]

Chairman;

In the case of Merion, when something has been "in vogue" for 80 years or so, I'd say it's probably more than a passing fad.  

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I don't mind responding to chairman and it wouldn't be wasting my time--that would be pretty hard to do. I don't mind attorneys either except when they aren't mine.

And I do enjoy arguing with people on here particularly when I have no idea who they are. But if chairman is something like the green committee chairman at your place we need to talk about at least a coup d' etat if not just an out and out revolution!

And so I would say with great assurance that chairman's opinions of Merion are some of the most muddle-headed opinions I've ever seen on here. The course conditioning is all that makes it difficult, huh? That's a brilliant analysis!

"people praise it because it's the vogue thing to do and sacriligious (sic)".

If chairman really is an attorney I think he's probably dangerously close to disbarment. The man can't write, can't spell and apparently had an 180 degree change of opinion on something without realizing it right in the middle of that very simple last sentence of his!

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I've found from intense investigation that 'chairman' is an actual committee chairman (or was). I've never thought a thing about anonymous posters on here but I think it's funny that this real (chairman) person would come on here, not identify himself and still anonymously post as "chairman". If he wants to use a name like that on here to distinguish himself at least he should go whole hog and call himself "Chairman" (with a capital "C") or even "THE Chairman" or better yet "THE CHAIRMAN".

chairman:

I hope you realize that all this banter is in fun. And if you don't realize that or take offense anyway, well, then, I don't know what to say--except we all try not to take ourselves too seriously on here!

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