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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« on: October 21, 2002, 03:09:30 PM »
In researching a possible trip to Talking Stick and Apache Stronghold I came across this "Special Report" dated 09/23/02 and entitled, "Inside the Ratings Game at Troubled Apache Stronghold" on TravelGolf.com written by Rebecca Larsen.
http://www.golfarizona.com/departments/features/apache-stronghold-ratings.htm

The article paints a very bleak picture of the conditions at Apache Stronghold. I apologize if this article has been discussed but has anyone played there in the month since this article was written? If so what were the conditions? Should we just wait to play there until they get the conditioning straightened out?

The writer uses the Apache Stronghold problems to call into question the whole issue of golf course ratings itself.  She seems to think that course conditioning should trump the layout when rating a golf course.

Among those interviewed for the article are Bradley Klein, Tom Doak and Gary Panks who is quite dismissive of the course's merits.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2002, 03:24:07 PM »
David -

A short while ago someone posted a thread about Arizona golf or Phoenix area golf in which Apache Stronghold's condition was addressed by the course superintendent. I suggest going back a few pages at the bottom to find this thread.

Does anyone know what the weather at AS is like in December? I heard it can be spotty due to elevation and I'm considering a trip out in early December.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2002, 04:10:32 PM »
George,
I don't see it but thanks anyway.  There was a thread called "Phoenix in February" a short while back but it didn't have any information about recent conditions. From what I got out of the search engine I couldn't find any comments from the superintendent at least as far back as June.

I am concerned because while I knew that conditions were an issue at AS the article and the quotes suggest to me that the course is in much worse shape than I thought.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Helpful Harry

Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2002, 04:13:24 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2002, 04:16:19 PM »
George- Let me know if you come to AS. I will make the trek.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2002, 04:24:49 PM »
Thanks for the post but that was seven months ago and the article was written four weeks ago.  Actually I remember reading Mahaffey's comments when they were written.  

However in the article Mahaffey is paraphrased saying that the fairways were in beautiful shape last spring but started to die out in July.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2002, 05:19:16 PM »
I haven't seen the article (yet) but I do recall that when I spoke with her about amonth ago, the writer, Ms. Larsen, seemed to be very suspicious of the entire ratings process and thought that much of it was based on conditioning. I did not get the impression that she understood the difference between design and maintenance. The two are related, but obviously separable. She was also under the mistaken impression that we editors have direct control over what raters see and when they see it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2002, 05:32:29 PM »
Just read the article. it's quite fair, although It's hard not to conclude that architect Gary Panks has grudge and is envious of not getting rankings. Gee, the conditions there at Apache Stronghold do sound awful. Hard to know how much is drought related, how much the high mineral content in the water, and how much the agronomic choices they made.

Brad
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2002, 05:39:46 PM »
Yes and I also detect a little schadenfreude from Panks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2002, 08:30:46 PM »
The magazine write up on the conditions at Apache is absolutely correct.  Just coincidently, I played Apache the same weekend (Labor Day) as did the group described in the article.  I have honestly never seen fairway conditions this bad on any course I have ever seen or played.  The first fairway was predominantly dirt and mud with a complete lack of grass in many, many large areas.  A couple of other holes had grass so long in the fairway that we lost balls in it....literally, the fairway in some areas had to be 4 inches high.  But ya know what....the architectural brilliance of the course shines through regardless of the conditions!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2002, 02:55:33 AM »
Mike, if it really is that bad (I don't doubt it is, by the way) then it's impossible to discern any architectural merit at all and obviously the rating has to be reconsidered. I had no idea from talking with this reporter how decrepit the conditions had become. I'm going to have to see this place when I'm out in Phoenix in early Dec.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2002, 05:41:35 AM »
While I don't doubt the article was "fair". I did get the impression that the author had no clue about design and architecture, let alone golf. Her comparisons to the house lined courses she seems to emulate gave me the impression that she was definitly reporting to/for the masses.  :o
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Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2002, 06:56:48 AM »
Brad, hopefully the cooler winter months will allow the course to recover by the time you get there in December.  But really, isn't it unfair to say that the horrible conditions make it "impossible to determine any architectural merit at all"?  Fairway conditioning has no bearing on the routing, the bunkering, the greens and their surrounds, etc.  Certainly conditioning is going to seriously detract from the way the course is reviewed, but the architectural merit is still present.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2002, 08:36:56 AM »
David,
If I were you and I wanted the straight scoop I would pick up the phone and call the course and ask for Ron Mahaffey, the supt. I promise you he will give it to you straight. The number is on their website, I don't know the URL, but a quick search should do the trick.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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cary lichtenstein

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Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2002, 03:42:44 AM »
I went out of my waay to play Apaaache Stronghold. I am a strong Tom Doak fan.

This course is unplayable. The conditions were so baaad around Labor Daay that I could not believe it. It way imposible to get a good feeling for the arch under these conditions. I'm talking about mud fairwaays.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Apache Stronghold's Conditions - How bad?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2002, 12:59:35 PM »
 I played there in February and it snowed.  8)   It was surreally cool but it hid all the peyote buttons from me.  :-X  There was some turf with allegation but the place is too grand to delete from the rota in Phoenix area.   I cannot imagine going to Arizona and not playing that course again.  And with the lodging/golf deal they have, it's too good to pass up.  I didn't see any mud when I was there,  but that is what we Northwesterners get for half the year so maybe I'm blind to it.  
   Ratings are for people without imagination.  "Conditions should trump layout" ?!  A lame and maligned statement.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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