[THuckaby2]

Michael Moore is wincing but shivas that makes great sense also.  Hell yes, you can't wait and see - it either happens or it doesn't.

And I've had that done TO ME!

Yep.  Stoke play qualifier event, I'm playing way above my head, scratch player I am with is sucking, he's not gonna make the number, it looks like I will.  Just need par on 18.  ON THAT TEE, he brings up something he said I did on the 6th hole.  Not only did I not do what he said, I was ready to kill the idiot for bringing it up then.  This guy was the type of "all about me" asshole who if he wasn't gonna make the number, than damn right a hack like me has no right to do so... so he pulled out this gamesmanship and/or prickish crap.

Sad to say, it worked.

That was at least 20 years ago... obviously I haven't forgotten.

[TEPaul]

"But of course out in the rest of the golf world - your experience there must be different, no?
That is, if a rules violation is called damn right the offender thinks he's being called a cheat.  Either that or he thinks it's something that one ought to let slide, as it is so often in "normal" golf... so he thinks you're the dick.
Thoughts on this?"

TomH:

I understand what you're saying. You know I may never have told you this but I guess everyone just brings to subjects like this whatever their experiences are or were in golf. Mine are probably very unusual.

I didn't really even start playing golf until I was around 35 and when I started just about all I did was practice and practice. I hardly ever even played with anyone. Then when I was about 37 I decide to see what I could do in competition and I entered my club championship and ended up losing to a young guy who won the City and State Amateur and turned pro. The next year I won the club championship and I could scarely believe it. I was happy and impressed with myself and more importantly my Dad (who had been a pretty accomplished national Amateur competitor in his time) took a real interest in my golf for the first time. So I decided to do what he once did when he started later in life (in his 30s)---I decided to take it on the road.

The first thing I entered was the US Amateur qualifier. I can only remember it vaguely now but I was scared and nervous as I'd never done anything like that before and I was for the first time playing against people around here I'd seen in the paper and stuff. I may not have even really known the Rules of Golf back then but somehow if something came up your "fellow competitors" could help you through it all right.

And you know what---I just kept plugging along that first time telling myself there was no reason I couldn't do what I knew I could do alone and at the end of the day I think I shot a 71 and missed being the medalist by like a shot. I think I was late in the day and I remember people around the scoreboard and that they were sort of looking at me like who the hell is this guy since he comes from around here? Most all the amateur players around here know each other since GAP has such a huge and active schedule.

And then the Exec. Dir. came up to me and said: "Congratulations son, you made the US Amateur and in a little while you'll get the packet." I said: "What's the packet?" and he said it's your instructions and stuff for when you get to the US Amateur. And then I said: "I'm not going to the US Amateur" and he said: ""What are you talking about?" I said: "This is the first time I ever played in something like this and all I wanted to do is see what it was like and what I could do." So, he said: "And you don't want to go to the US Amateur?" and I said no. I think he asked me if I was sure about that and when I told him I was I think he said something like that was a first for him and maybe he like muttered "This guy is nuts" under his breath.

But when I realized what this meant after that I played in everything. In those years and for maybe the next 15 years I played in over 40 tournaments a year of one kind or another.

The only reason I told you this is if you play in as many tournaments as I did during those years there was no time to play recreational golf and I almost never did that. All I did is practice and practice and play tournaments. And in those tournaments everyone sure as hell did abide strictly by the Rules of Golf. So that was my experience in golf and with the Rules.

And at some point early on I got fixated by the Rules of Golf and basically memorized every Decision, and then I started studying their "principles" and then the evolution of the Rules. And then maybe around '89 or so I started to offiicate too because by then I was on the Board of GAP and a few years later on the board of the Pennsylvania State Golf Associaton.

So obviously that's why I feel the way I do about the Rules. But Tom, if I went out and just played golf for fun with no match of any kind going on it didn't bother me if people broke the strict rules of golf. I did too during those times. I remember I used to roll my ball all the time when I wasn't playing for anything and one of my friends who played out on that circuit told me I shouldn't do that because it would just upset me more that I couldn't do it in competition. And so I never did that again.

So just playing golf I doubt I'd call anyone on anything but I sure would in competition. I just can't remember having to ever do that although I sure did get in some interesting and pretty heated disputes on the Rules with a few opponents. The most remarkable time was in a match in the Philadelphia Amateur. That one got called in to the USGA.

So that's my experiences. I don't think I'm a prick about the Rules but the stuff I played in nobody let stuff on the Rules slide, that's for sure. And I firmly believe that because it's that way it makes golfers feel more special about what they're doing and more special about what they're playing in too.

[JohnV]

Tom, good story, I only know of one other play who turned down a trip to a USGA championship and he felt he couldn't afford to fly from Oregon to Minnesota and stay there for a few days.

Being a working rules official means that when I play golf with people they are usually nervous about breaking rules.  If I'm just out playing for fun and someone asks if I'm going to call them for rules violations or somehow embarass them, I answer, "As long as we don't have a bet you can do anything you want."  That usually deflects their concern and then they start asking me all kinds of rules questions which I'm happy to answer.

In our usual Saturday games at the club, it is pretty standard to concede putts under a foot so I don't bother pointing out that it is against the rules.  Every other group on the course is doing it.  When a player says mine is good I usually tap it in anyway just to be correct, but sometimes someone else knocks it back to me before I can so I pick it up and keep my mouth shut.

[TEPaul]

And Tom, even in the last 5-6 years with our new young Exec. Dir at both GAP and the PA State Assoc. and his young crew who are so computer and communication savy and so good at what they do I see a noticeable difference among the competitors. You can see it in their eyes and their attitudes when they watch us work. We all have radios with ear phones now and for instance, on a complex dangerous hole that may be blind they'll hit a tee shot and when they hear us whispering in our radio and then say to them: "You're OK, you just cleared the hazard", when they couldn't see it or weren't aware there's a spotter on the radio out there. You can see it makes them feel more speical and that they're playing in something that makes them feel that way. It's great stuff really, and they get into it seriously and that means too in how they get into really playing by the Rules of Golf. There always are some young guys who aren't used to it but if they run afoul of something we explain it to them in such a way it takes them about one day to figure it out and get into it too.

[TEPaul]

JVB:

Your usual Saturday games are match play, right? If so, there's nothing wrong with concessions---that sure is in the Rules of Golf for match play. If you knock them in during match play anyway, you really do play by the strict Rules of Golf Mr Bond!  

You see, this thread like many long thread on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com has totally floated away from the original subject. I don't know how this thread got onto playing by the Rules of Golf.

Now let's get back to the subject----CHEATING!!

And in that vein I would like to propose a fascinating and interesting premise;

"If the USGA/R&A institutionalized a sophisticated form of CHEATING within their Rules could they make the game of golf as popular, successful and lucrative as NASCAR is??"

Don't laugh, you'll remember Fireball Roberts was my idol, "Big Bill" France became an icon in Daytona Beach and that little twerp son of his Jimmy France who I used to sit next to at Seabreeze Private School back in the 1950s is now a billionaire----and all is right in Denmark.

[JohnV]

Tom,

No they are not, they are team competitions against the other groups on the course, but everyone wants to play fast and they figure this is one way to speed up play.  I doubt there are many clubs where everyone putts out everything these days.   It pains me, but I'm still the new guy and I'm not taking on the entire club.

At any of the events that are points events for our end of the year team match against another club everyone putts out (about one every 3 weeks).  But at the other Saturday games, most guys pick up the short putts.

I did play with one group last Saturday that putted them all out and I think I'll stick with them as it doesn't give me as much heartburn.

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Many thanks for that story and let me say I can weirdly understand your choice at age 35 NOT to go to the USAm.  On a much lower level I have entered qualifiers with much the same intentions - just to play seriously, see how I do against the big boys  with absolutely no intention of going to the next level.  Of course I never did make the number at any of these, thus never faced the real-world choice.  But I can say my intentions were like yours that first time!

But the rest of your post confirms what I thought - your history is damn near complete tournament golf, and what shivas and I would call "serious" tournament golf at that.  Thus I can understand if you have difficult grasping what shivas and I are getting at here.

Because see, there are different types of competition as well.  Oh hell yes - just playing a friendly round with some buddies, one would have to be a royal asshole to start calling rules violations - but that's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about events where score is kept, where prizes might be given, but lots of participants don't even KNOW the rules let alone follow them.

And in those, man it's tough to be a rules stickler.

Oh well, I guess this has gone way afield.  I just still don't handle these situations very well and shivas' advice to sort of announce in a chatting way how nice it is to really follow the rules, as one walks down the first fairway... that's the best advice I've yet heard.  That would diffuse situations.  But as you read that, I can imagine you thinking shivas and I are nuts and why would anyone ever have to do that?

Well believe me, one does.  You should see the stuff we see.

TH

[THuckaby2]

JVB/TEP:

This has come up before - but what would each of you do about one group I play with, where "everything is lateral" is one of their key rules?

By that I mean, they play all lost balls and OB as lateral hazards - drop where it went in/got lost, one stroke.

Could you handle it?

It's their reality.  It's also the reality on the extremely busy public courses they tend to play.

I haven't even bothered to try and get them to change, although it does cost me money, as one of the low 'cappers.  Why?  Because it's just a realistic way to play on crowded public courses.  Try taking that long walk back to the tee after an unexpected lost ball... or try hitting too many provisionals... you're likely to get a club stuck up your ass.

But maybe that's the answer... have we come back to the "dangerous conditions" rule?

 

[TEPaul]

TomH:

I sure don't want to sound like I'm trying to act superior or anything but in a tournament of any kind where score is kept and prizes are handed out and many of the competitors are just abusing the Rules of Golf I just wouldn't play in something like that.

But if that's the way it is for you and Shivas, then who am I to say you shouldn't play?

On the other hand you could get one of the world's biggest and loudest bullhorns and just about in the middle of the tournament you could scream into that bullhorn "ALL YOU GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF F....CHEATERS!!!!"

That should get their attention. But look pal, you are NOT as big as JohnV so if one of those slimmy cheaters lapses into a moment of recidivism, don't try to deck him like JohnV, just drop to the ground and bite his ankle real hard!

[JohnV]

Tom,

If we had come kind of golf or competitions committee I would bring it up with them, but the club is very lax about that so the only one I could talk with is the pro.  I know he wants to do the right thing given the number of times he calls me at home for rulings and he does on the days that really matter, but his job is also at stake (a reason that the pro should never be the Rules  or Handicap Chairman.)

When it comes to rules like lost balls the guys are very good about going back and playing another ball or since we are usually playing a best 1, 2 or 3 of 4 balls, they just sit out of that hole and I'm always teaching them the right options for dropping a ball when it goes in the hazards.

It has gotten better this year, but there are still plenty of guys who just pick up that 6 inch putt.

[THuckaby2]

 

Well now that's the second great piece of advice I've received.  Hell yes it's one thing for JV to make that announcement, quite another for wussy little ole me.  

But on a more serious note (which sucks, the less serious is way more fun) - I have tried to get these jumokes to play by the REAL rules.  What I got for my trouble was being called the equivalent of a rules Nazi, and told to lighten up.

Thankfully I do have other groups who do play by the rules, and there are always the "serious" events if I really want to go that route.  

But these guys are friends... oh well.

TH

[THuckaby2]

"TomH:
I sure don't want to sound like I'm trying to act superior or anything but in a tournament of any kind where score is kept and prizes are handed out and many of the competitors are just abusing the Rules of Golf I just wouldn't play in something like that."

TomH:

Let me amend that. I would play in a tournament like that but only if the club allowed us to bring guns and knives.

(squirt guns and rubber knives, that is)

You'd fit right in.  Such are encouraged.  

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Whoever said that I didn't treat it exactly that way?

 

Seriously, once I gave up on trying to change them - which happened damn fast - then all bets were off... both figuratively and literally.

TH

[Dennis_Harwood]

A test!

What do you consider "cheating"?

Five situations.  All "cheating", or not?

(1) You can not find your ball in the woods.  When you are sure your opponents are not looking, you drop another ball and say nothing.

(2) You ball is in a terrible lie.  You announce you are going to lift your ball for ID and mark and lift but since your opponents have not come over to watch you replace in a slighly more favorable position.

(3) You ask a fellowcompetitor just before making a club selection on a par three what he hit. He answers and no one raises the "advice" issue and you return your card without a penalty (Rule .

(4) One the 15th Hole you find your son's 25" length wedge which was previously unobserved by you.  That makes your 15th club.  You say nothing to your opponents (knowing they could not waive the infraction if you brought it to their attention -- Dec. 1-3/4).

(5) You borrow your friends new driver in the moring and as you are about to go collect your bets and award for low round of the day in the grill after your round run into your friend who comments that he hopes you liked the driver, but you should be aware its on the USGA nonconforming club list.  You go collect your bets anyway.

Does everyone agree these are all "cheating"?

[Jeff_Brauer]

What the hell, here is another personal story.

On the high school golf team, I always found (as a sophmore) that the junior and seniors on my team shot in the 30's when playing together, but when I was paired with them, they never broke 40, which I suspected was because they were lax with the rules when playing among their friends.

I also suspected that such cheating kept me out of the top 5.....so one day, in an actual tournament that I qualified for, I was paired with a guy I was competing with for the last spot on many occaisions.

Early in the round, a player from the other school inadvertantly teed on up a foot in front of the markers, and I gently suggested he move it back, which he graciously did.  A few holes later, my teammate left a putt on the lip and whacked the ball across the street, OB.  While the other team was willing to concede his lip hanger and forget it, I told him I wouldn't!

I didn't even know for sure if the stroke and distance penalty applied, but suspected it did, and told him thats how we were scoring it until we got into ask the coaches.  Both competitor and coach were dumfounded that I would call my own guy, but help a competitor avoid a mistake, but I did want to be on the traveling squad!

Junior golf is tough for cheating as I have relayed before. They - and their parents - don't know the rules any more than Wie, so inadvertant stuff happens.  I have related an AJGA tourney where I saw what I thought was an illegal drop for a lost ball, which I let go, and which eventually pushed my son to quallifier status.  

And in another tournament at venerable Colonial, my son's first experience playing that course was ruined by a fellow competitor who ranted, threw clubs, and eventually tried to mark down false scores, with my son as his scorekeeper, which led to an ugly confrontation at the scorers tent.  The sad part is, and I understand the rules officials point of view, this kid was cheating to keep his score under 90 for looks.  So, his tone of voice and demeanor was to just end the embarassment quickly, whereas my son would have sure appreciated the support for following the rules.

[Dennis_Harwood]

 A few holes later, my teammate left a putt on the lip and whacked the ball across the street, OB.  While the other team was willing to concede his lip hanger and forget it, I told him I wouldn't!

I didn't even know for sure if the stroke and distance penalty applied, but suspected it did, and told him thats how we were scoring it until we got into ask the coaches.  

Jeff-- Great stories.  However if the above ever happens again its a one stroke penalty and the ball is replaced.

Its Decision 18-2a/23

"Q- In stroke play a competitor's ball stops on the lip of the hole, In discust the competitor knocks the ball off the green with the back of his putter. What is the ruling?

A- The competitor must replace the ball under penalty of one stroke--Rule 18-2a.  The competitor is not considered to have made a stroke."

[Evan Fleisher]

Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from Jermaine Dye after last night's World Series game, regarding a quiestionable call at the plate and whether or not Dye was hit by a pitch...

"I'm not going to tell him I fouled it off," Dye said. "Just go to first and, hopefully, we get a big hit and we did."

He had a 3-2 count at the time, and his "pass" ended up loading the bases.  The next batter then hit a grand slam sending the Sox to a 6-4 lead at the time.

Just thought I'd throw this little tid-bit in there to show how eithical and upstanding the "other" major sports leagues are.  Nice job, Jermaine!!!  Not..............

[Evan Fleisher]

In principle I agree with what you are saying, Shiv...it makes a lot of good sense.

I guess what rubs me the wrong way are the actions by the players and coaches in these ood situations that can somehow influence the outcomes decided on by the refs.

Let's continue on for a moment with our current example...Mr. Dye.  If you watch the replay of the incident, as soon as the ball hits the bat and careens downward into the ground, he starts walking towards first base in an attempt to SELL the action...knowing full well that the ball came nowhere near his body.  That INTENT to DECEIVE is what gets me.  Had he just stood there, the umpire may have still in fact awarded Jermaine first base thinking he was hit by the pitch...but maybe, then again, by standing still and in a way ADMITTING that it was actually a foul tip the umpire MAY have ruled diffierently and the outcome MAY have changed.

Maybe I'm just getting nit-picky here, but when a ball bounces off the ground and the player and coaches on the sideline are scremaing it was a catch, or when an incident such as this one described above occurs and the players are willing participants in the decption of those making the judgement calls...that is where my respect for the players, coaches, and sports takes a turn for the worse.

Will it keep me from watching and cheering...hell no!...but I do think less of the participants as a result.

[ForkaB]

A test!

What do you consider "cheating"?

Five situations.  All "cheating", or not?

(1) You can not find your ball in the woods.  When you are sure your opponents are not looking, you drop another ball and say nothing.

(2) You ball is in a terrible lie.  You announce you are going to lift your ball for ID and mark and lift but since your opponents have not come over to watch you replace in a slighly more favorable position.

(3) You ask a fellowcompetitor just before making a club selection on a par three what he hit. He answers and no one raises the "advice" issue and you return your card without a penalty (Rule .

(4) One the 15th Hole you find your son's 25" length wedge which was previously unobserved by you.  That makes your 15th club.  You say nothing to your opponents (knowing they could not waive the infraction if you brought it to their attention -- Dec. 1-3/4).

(5) You borrow your friends new driver in the moring and as you are about to go collect your bets and award for low round of the day in the grill after your round run into your friend who comments that he hopes you liked the driver, but you should be aware its on the USGA nonconforming club list.  You go collect your bets anyway.

Does everyone agree these are all "cheating"?

Interesting, quiz, Dennis.  Trying to answer it honestly makes me realize how bifurcated (or trifurcated or googlplexfurcated...) golf realy is.

1.  For a competitive round it is a no-brainer that all 5 situations are "cheating"--if you define cheating as breaking the rules, whether you know them or not. However.....
2.  In friendly games, 4. and 5. are "cheating" only to the inveterate "Rule Nazi" in your group.  To most people, they would just be honest mistakes.
3.  In friendly games, 3. is often "waived" in my experience, particularly ones where serious money or pride is on the table.  Part of the juice of those games is spoofing your opponents as to what club you hit and how hard you hit it!
4.  When you are in a friendly game, even 2. is a candidate for "cheating."  You just tell your oponents you don't want to a-break your wrist and/or b-damage the course.  If you're lucky, they'll not make you take a penalty.
5.  Hey, 1. is also OK, if you are just trying to get a few swings in, as long as you tell your competitor what you are doing.  If he calls you for "practicing" on the course, get another friend.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

Knowing some of the bandits around here, I generally ask  "Which rules are we not going to observe today?"

It generally has a salutary effect of letting them know that I do discourage grounding a club in a bunker and other infractions.

Bob

[JSlonis]

shivas is oh so right, and the Decisions confirm this.  The operative word is indeed "should."  If it said "must" it would be a whole different ball game.



20-1/16  Method Used to Mark Position of Ball

Q. The Note to Rule 20-1 provides that “the position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball.” Is a player penalized if he uses an object which is not similar to a ball-marker or small coin to mark the position of his ball?
A. No. The provision in the Note to Rule 20-1 is a recommendation of best practice, but there is no penalty for failing to act in accordance with the Note.
Examples of methods of marking the position of a ball which are not recommended, but are permissible, are as follows:
• placing the toe of a club at the side of, or behind, the ball;
• using a tee;
• using a loose impediment;
• scratching a line, provided the putting green is not tested (Rule 16-1d) and a line for putting is not indicated (Rule 8-2b). As this practice may cause damage to the putting green, it is discouraged.
However, under Rule 20-1 it is necessary to physically mark the position of the ball. Reference to an existing mark on the ground does not constitute marking the position of a ball. For example, it is not permissible to mark the position with reference to a blemish on the putting green. (New)

The KNOWINGLY incorrect marking of a ball is the infraction that I have seen the most in tournament play.  I'm not sure why guys think that an extra inch or so is going to make a big difference, but they do.  I see it all too often.  Often enough that I've come up with a name for these cheater's...INCH WORMS

My worst situation involving an "inch worm" happened a few years ago at the local GAP qualifier for the US Amateur.  I was paired with this young kid, about 16-17 years old, and on the very first hole I see him pull the "slide the coin under the ball...replace too far in front trick!"  Well, he then proceeds to do this on the 2nd hole as well, and ended up still missing a 2 footer(Thank you Golf Gods).  I was steaming at this point, and I had to spend the next 9 hours in the 36 hole qualifier with him.  So...the next hole he's got another 3 footer and I see him do it AGAIN!  I couldn't take it anymore.  So I said politely: "Ya' know, if you just keep remarking that ball, it'll eventually fall into the hole and you won't have to putt.  Listen, we're going to be out here all day long, and I'd appreciate it if you would just put your ball back where it belongs when you mark it from now on."  I got the obligatory look from him, like, "what do you mean?"  Needless to say, it was a most unenjoyable day.

[Dan Kelly]

I've come up with a name for these cheater's...INCH WORMS

My worst situation involving an "inch worm" happened a few years ago at the local GAP qualifier for the US Amateur.  I was paired with this young kid, about 16-17 years old, and on the very first hole I see him pull the "slide the coin under the ball...replace too far in front trick!"  Well, he then proceeds to do this on the 2nd hole as well, and ended up still missing a 2 footer(Thank you Golf Gods).  I was steaming at this point, and I had to spend the next 9 hours in the 36 hole qualifier with him.  So...the next hole he's got another 3 footer and I see him do it AGAIN!  I couldn't take it anymore.  So I said politely: "Ya' know, if you just keep remarking that ball, it'll eventually fall into the hole and you won't have to putt.  Listen, we're going to be out here all day long, and I'd appreciate it if you would just put your ball back where it belongs when you mark it from now on."  I got the obligatory look from him, like, "what do you mean?"  Needless to say, it was a most unenjoyable day.

Great expression. And a great comeback.

I hope you whipped him but good.

[Evan Fleisher]

Ok, let's go with it.  The ump made a split second decision, and Dye made a split second decision to start toward first, but he also looked back for approval from the ump, too.  As if to say "are you actually buying this?".  

But let's assume he intended to deceive.  A split second decision to do so.

Well, how many of us scour the USGA decisions looking for decisions that may help us, like the drop from the sprinklerhead or the ability to intentionally NOT look for a findable ball in thick gunch because we don't want to find it (like Mickelson wanted to do in San Diego a few years ago) or the old "mark it and leave it" when an opponent's ball might serve as a backstop?  

Those are PREMEDITATED.  They require planning.  So which one is worse, morally speaking:  a split second decision to try to sell a "gift" from the rules or guys like me, who make an effort to know where the rules help me because I know that they're going to screw me plenty?

But...are you using the rules to actually CHEAT...or are you just being smart about knowing the rules well enough to actually use them in your favor?  There is a big difference, Dave!

Jermaine Dye knew that he was not hit by that pitch, and took steps to ensure that the umpire was persuaded to rule in his favor, knowing full well it was deception.  I think we are still comparing apples and oranges here.

Split second decisions made in order to help influence a ruling are cheating in my book...using the rules to your advantage within the context of those rules (no matter how obscure they are) in not cheating...it's playing SMART!  There is a difference, my man!  

[Mike Hendren]

ALWAYS go for it on fifth down!

Colorado (National Co-Champions) 33    Missouri 31
October 6, 1990

 

[Evan Fleisher]

ALWAYS go for it on fifth down!

Colorado (National Co-Champions) 33    Missouri 31
October 6, 1990

 

Oh, now don't go bringing up THAT debacle, Mike!!!  That was they year my alma mater should have been SOLE national champs after they killed the Corn-suckers that year in Orlando, only to have the above-mentioned stupid play, coupled with a bogus clipping call during the Orange Bowl keep them from solo glory.

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