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Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Can you remember all the holes?
« on: January 20, 2003, 06:19:06 PM »
Another thread on aesthetics v. strategy has appeared. How about this for a standard of quality - how many holes can you remember after you play a course for the first time?

To me this is the ultimate test, and I have heard Sam Snead say the same. I believe it involves -

1. Routing - Holes that flow from one to another stand a great chance of being remembered. I have trouble remembering courses that involve carting through the neighborhood, no matter how good the holes.

2. Variety - A variety of holes, and a variety of shots.

3. General Memorability - Does the course stir up your visual, olfactory, aural and tactile sensibilities, causing impressions?

I played Eastward Ho! for the first time this summer and was blown away by all three of these factors. A few times I have been able to remember all eighteen holes after one trip around, but not that often.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2003, 07:22:59 PM »
Michael,
Your points are good ones but I'm still not so sure this is always a good test of "quality"??  I can think of some memorable courses that I remember all the holes but I remember them because they were so bad!  

Also, some people just have a better memory then others do.  Moreover, I've played Pine Valley with guys who couldn't remember more than a few of the holes right after playing it.  They loved the golf course but just couldn't recall the holes.  One guy said the they all seemed to look the same!  I don't hold that against them because they were more probably more concerned about playing (or finding) their golf ball than studying the architecture.  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2003, 08:12:06 PM »
I just returned from a weekend trip to Phoenix where I played Apache Stronghold on Friday, the Apache course at Desert Mountain on Saturday, and Talking Stick North on Sunday.  I generally agree with the "memorabilty" quotient -- I can recall pretty much all of the first and third, but the Nicklaus cartball resort design at Desert Mountain just kind of all runs together.  Could be because we walked AS and TSN and rode the Apache/DM course, but there was no option given its residential routing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JWL>

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2003, 10:07:59 PM »
Bill

Just curious as to what you meant by "the residential routing", and how that impacted your ability to remember the holes.  Were you confined to cart paths, or just on and off?

Thanks,
Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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redanman

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2003, 06:32:25 AM »
To me the ultimate standard of quality has become when you can remember all the holes and have to struggle to find the "worst" hole. Memorability is an extraneous factor for most people in my travels, it is mopre of an experience rather than a quality architecture thing.  But then again, I can really enjoy a near dog track I enjoy this game so much.

Those unlucky enough to play with me regularly can attest to my inevitable question of the "worst hole" while playing the 19th.





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2003, 06:49:53 AM »
Bill McBride- How were conditions at Apache Stronghold?

JWL- I like the term residential routing, it seems to define what I've been seeing for the last twenty tears. To me, It is a clostraphobic feeling one gets when playing a house lined hole and also when ziging and zaging in between homes and on city streets with your cart to find the next tee. If I was in a rant mode i'd argue that while the housing justifies the project fiduciarily, it (the project) might as well be scrubbed because no matter how great the golf may be on paper, in reality, it becomes unmemorable.

It does raise a good question but maybe for another forum but what's the best house lined hole ever built? PB doesn''t count.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2003, 07:21:39 AM »
Hard for me to do.

Remembered all the holes after 1 round at Merion, PV, Pebble, Cypress and, for some reason, Prestwick and Easthampton.  Drew blanks at TOC, RDGC, Shinnecock, Fishers until a second trip around.  Still have memory gaps at about every other Top 100 I've only played once (e.g. LACC, Bel-Air, Pasatiempo, TCC, Nairn, TNC, Elie, Machrahanish, Atlantic, The Links)  although general impressions are still strong.

Getting better as GCA raises my knowledge of architecture and I'm looking for specific things.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Andy

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2003, 08:53:28 AM »
A Clay Man, I played AS about a month ago and it wasn't pretty.  Now, maybe I am spoiled by Southern Cal and AZ standards being pretty high at even low end places, but if you play Talking Stick, which Bill Coore told me day in day out was maintained better than anything they ever designed, and then AS, it is difficult to be objective.  The tribe needs some help and would be wise to get some consulting or management assistance.  It really is a shame with a great layout like that to have it AT BEST in D condition.  Anyway, maybe it is improved over a year ago, but still not good.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2003, 10:02:25 AM »
I've played some really great and really memorable courses and I used to remember all the holes but no more! Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the greatness of the holes or the architecture or their memorability--it only has to do with my addled mind!

I played one not that long ago in Northern Ireland where all the holes were unbelievably memorable.

Royal County..aah, Royal County something...give me a few days and I'll remember the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jerome

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2003, 12:37:49 PM »
A brotha likes me can't be remember'in all the hos...but I gotsta remember some of them.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Stevo (Guest)

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2003, 02:56:42 PM »
Yo, I got a ho in every zip code.  WORD!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Slag Bandoon

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2003, 03:27:51 PM »
 I am a Yardage Guide junky.  I buy them whenever they are available. Not too much for while playing but for reminiscing or study. It's too bad that usually only the mid and high end places have them.  But at least the scorecards usually have routing and hole details.  

 "I'm waiting for alzheimers to kick in so I can add up 18 for my total score."  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Idiot Savant

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2003, 04:43:25 PM »
I just played a mediocre course a couple of weeks back and can remember all the holes. What does this prove?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JWL>

Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2003, 09:19:14 PM »

Clay Man

I like your description of a residential routing.  I concur with your description wholeheartedly.  That is why I questioned the definition, because I think "based on your definition", I can make a preety good case that Apached/DM does not fall in that category.
Yes, it indeed has housing and even close than we expected between holes 1 and 9.  However, the remainder of the course is considerably open as it relates to housing.  Cart paths do not go between lots anywhere and only cross a road between the front nine and back nine and between 10 and 11.  Housing is not lined up down both sides of holes and there is no zig zagging on streets.   I just found it rather unbelievable that no holes could be remembered.  I can only assume, as Bill stated, that riding in a cart influenced that situation.  My guess is that he didn't play as well as normal that day either, but that is just a hunch. LOL    I wish I never had to deal with another lot line or cart path, but unfortunately, as you indicated, they are often the reason I get a chance to make them as inconspicuous as possible.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you remember all the holes?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2003, 10:07:10 PM »
JWL, I actually did lose $4 that day and am probably still playing #18  ::) but didn't play too badly.  I did think there were too many houses on the course perimeter.  Maybe the contrast of AS and TSN with no residential impact influenced me negatively.  Had a good time at DM/A and will gladly return.  The private club / all cartball factor is a negative factor in my opinion, nothing personal!  But we were the only walkers at TSN, I guess it's a Phoenix thing.  Sunday was a glorious day to walk, the cart riders don't know what they're missing!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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