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Tom Doak

Best Candidates for Preservation
« on: February 19, 2003, 12:20:57 PM »
What courses do you feel should be preserved exactly as they are for future generations?  (Please limit yourself to your top 2-3 candidates.)

If you feel that every course should renovate as the game changes, say that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Hendren

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2003, 12:59:03 PM »
In Tennessee, Holston Hills and Memphis CC, both DJR.

BTW, I hear Belle Meade CC here in town is about to spend some major quiche on a renovation.  Have you heard anything, T. Doak?

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Slag Bandoon

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2003, 12:59:26 PM »
I hate to be obvious but Prestwick should be preserved.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2003, 01:00:11 PM »
Is it possible to preserve any golf course as it was presented in its complete concept by a master architect upon finishing the project or after reasonable time for grow-in maturation?  Time, wear and tear, erosion, evolution does not permit this in my opinion.  

Isn't this sort of like the story of Dorian Grey, making compromises to preserve youthful appearance, brings about perverse consequences. (I only vaguely remember the story)

Like that beatifully aged woman in the opening of the movie Titanic, what was more lovely?  Her gracefully aged face and the light within her knowing eyes, or her youthful beauty in love on board the fated ship. I might think of Cypress Point as something like that, even if I haven't actually played there.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2003, 01:00:44 PM »
Off the top of my head the best candidate for preservation as is IMHO would be NOrth Berwick.  The combination of site, strategic elements, fun and whimsey make this #1 on my list.  It does a great job of combining  the natural and manmade elements into a seemingly natural and unforced layout.  It is one of those courses that I wanted to go around again immeadiately after finishing, like CPC, PD, SFGC.

Cheers
Stan
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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CHrisB

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2003, 01:12:53 PM »
Cruden Bay
Cape Breton Highlands
North Berwick (West)

Wild, woolly, funky, fun, well-routed, and with no pressure to hold championships.  Keep 'em as they are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2003, 01:20:46 PM »
I think that "None of the Above" is a bit extreme, even for me.  If you are going to "preserve" it's the greensites that count.  So, NGLA rather than Shinnecock, Dornoch rather than Muirfield, The Old Course rather than Cypress Point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2003, 01:42:21 PM »
Crystal Downs.... Pine Valley...... Merion.  Never touch em.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2003, 01:43:21 PM »
Keep Oakmont as it is today.  Never let Johnny Appleseed anywhere near that course again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2003, 02:17:42 PM »
Pinehurst #2
Prairie Dunes
Pacific Dunes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bob_Farrell

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2003, 02:25:58 PM »
I don't think I'd touch Carnoustie, and I have to agree with Dornoch

BF
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2003, 02:33:13 PM »
NGLA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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M.W. Burrows

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2003, 02:43:14 PM »
I wouldn't change Shinnecock or National.  I'd leave them alone, in tandem, for the rest of time.  

Well, maybe I'd knock more trees down but that's no big deal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2003, 03:08:25 PM »
Agree with all the above and add Pasatiempo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2003, 03:09:16 PM »
And Somerset Hills.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2003, 03:15:57 PM »
Confining myself to the Chicago area, I would start with Chicago Golf.  Shoreacres is a candidate assuming the work Tom has done (is doing?) is completed.  Old Elm is pretty authentic Ross although it is not a "great" course.  I like Skokie as it is now, query was it renovated or restored?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JDoyle

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2003, 03:27:25 PM »
Of the courses I have played in this country, NGLA is the course that most feels like a timemachine.  I would hope it would remain that way forever.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2003, 05:27:55 PM »
Toronto Golf Club, restored to plans
Except two, which one is passable, the course has been restored back to the plans (even the collar widths). It's historically important, and should remain as is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Mingay

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2003, 07:20:53 PM »
Ian,

I have to disagree. Two isn't passable. And there's definitely a potentially unique aesthetic missing at Toronto these days. See Henry Leach's 1912 observation posted under Doak's 'sister' thread about candidates for restoration.  

My hat's off to Colt  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2003, 08:25:33 PM »
If I was forced to choose three, I'd chose St.Andrews, NGLA and Cypress Point. The problem is limiting the number to three, as you can see every region has at least three deserving courses. I look at my three has being fairly universal, but mine is also regionally influenced. If you were in Australia how could you not list Royal Melbourne or in Ireland County Down, Portrush or Ballybunion or in Japan Hirono, and so on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2003, 08:47:47 PM »
Rich -- Why do you feel the greensites are key? You must place an awful lot of weight on greensites.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ForkaB

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2003, 12:09:45 AM »
Forest

My thought is that if you change a greensite, it's very hard to get it back if you change your mind.  Changes to fairways and/or new tees can be rectified much more easily.  Also, I think that great greensites are the key to great golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2003, 03:55:32 AM »
Tom Doak.

From an Australian perspective, probably only Royal Melbourne W&E, or maybe Kingston Heath, possibly Victoria, would fit the bill. Too many others have been messed with so much that their original design integrity has been compromised, and therefore preservation is not an optimising option. No sense in preserving alterations which dont compliment the original design.

In re-reading your original post, I get the feeling that you are angling at something else here. Is it a case of letting evolution of a course get to the point where the best design is in play, and then leaving it alone. How many exact (your words) original designs are there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Walker Taylor iv

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2003, 04:40:27 AM »
Royal Worlington and Newmarket- a real stunner to play. Although I doubt it will be ever thrown out of office and become a candidate.

Camden CC- even with recent changes, worth preserving as an example of a 6200 yard par 70 course that technology has not made "obselete" due to angles and .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: Best Candidates for Preservation
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2003, 10:39:32 AM »
Jeff, Iwas refering to the short par three 14th as passable. The second green sadly is not. I'm not sure what you refer to as missing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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