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Patrick_Mucci

When's the last time you actually played one ?
« on: March 14, 2003, 07:06:19 PM »
Why are there so few Biarritz golf holes ?

If par 3's are filler and/or connector holes, why haven't architects, modern, or classic built more of them ?

They are unique, visually stunning, intimidating, thrilling, challenging and FUN to play.  So where are they ?

I've only played two that I can recall.
The first was the 13th hole at The Knoll, George Bahto's beloved Charlie Banks course.  I must have played it 100 times as a kid with my friends.  I loved it, but was cognizant that a bogie or worse were the by-product of careless play.

Then I played YALE which had water as an added feature.

In an age where machinery can create this hole almost anywhere, why hasn't it been done ?

Is it because the hole is inherently difficult ?
Because the hole is likely to produce high scores ?
Because the hole is likely to produce slow play ?

What's your take on its absence from American Golf Course Architecture ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2003, 07:20:06 PM »
Possibly because the dip in the green is considered too funky and/or severe??

Patrick:

The 13th green at Somerset Hills has the characteristic deep swale in the middle of the green.  Even though it's a par 4, does that count?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2003, 07:23:37 PM »
Chipoat,

I think the 13th green at Somerset Hills is disqualified because the swale/dip is so narrow, and, there is very little room on the back tier.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2003, 07:26:26 PM »
The committee rules the DQ will be permitted to stand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2003, 07:32:43 PM »
The one at Black Creek is excellent.  I played there almost a year ago - so that would be the last one.  BTW, it is a modern course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Buck Wolter

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2003, 07:57:50 PM »
Is a Biarritz a green or a specific type of a Par 3 ala a Redan?

#5 at Arcadia Bluffs has a 'Biarritz' Green, actually very severe with what I remember to be about a 4' deep swale with putting surface on both sides. However this green is on a Par 5. The green is set perpendicular to the end of the fairway with a large sandy waste area between the fairway and green. If you try to go for the green in 2 you have to attack it at it's most narrow point. However if you layup at the end of the fairway you can play it straight away at about 150 yards. I think it makes for a very interesting Par 5 and is the only version I've played. This is also a recent course but one that I think took some chances.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2003, 08:27:30 PM »
Another Biarritz which I have played, but forgot about, is the
11th hole at The Creek, an all world hole.

I want to thank Chipoat for reminding me.

Most of these holes are classic vintage.

Why aren't they being built today ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul_Turner

Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2003, 08:40:01 PM »
Patrick

Not played Piping Rock?!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Neal_Meagher

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2003, 08:46:06 PM »
Patrick,

Why are there so few being built?  Because we have become numbed to the banal and dull.

I just received some comments back this week from a very old club in the central valley of California where Gib and are are throwing some ideas around for a new master plan.  Their original nine dates to around 1924-26, subsequently added onto and bastardized in 1954.

Yet, some of the original old bones are in place that absolutely scream out for exactly the kind of green you are talking about.  So, on one par 3 which plays about 215 yards across some rolling flood plain bottom land I suggested rebuilding the existing 2,800 square foot oval into a roiling, bigger than friggin life 7,500 - 8,000 square foot biarritz-type green.

They hated it.

I think its that simple, that we have standardized so many things in our society, not only golf design, but even toilet paper holders.  For, if there was ever an appropriate setting for such an exciting green style, it would have been there.

Maybe we'll throw a punchbowl at them and see what they think about that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

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Patrick_Mucci

Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2003, 08:50:27 PM »
Paul Turner,

Sadly, no.

I have been promised a round by a frequent contributor to this site who shall go nameless.  A contributor known for his less than brief posts, but I don't want to give any hints as to his identity.

I've also been invited by several other individuals, but scheduling conflicts have prevented it.  

From now on, golf takes precedence.

It's on my list of MUSTS for this summer, with or without the GAP guy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2003, 08:57:01 PM »
Buck W,

See the December 1999 Feature Interview with George Bahto.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2003, 09:54:28 PM »
Last year I played Yale and Fishers Island back to back with both having one although quite different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Fortson

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2003, 09:59:58 PM »
Last one I played was #11 at The Creek Club in the Wall Street Pro-Am.  I was 2-under going into #10 and after I left 11th green I was 2-over par.  Double-Double.  There was a lot of wind and I tried to drive #10 and put it in the water.  Then #11, forget about it.  With an extreme head wind I had to hit I think a 4-iron.  Water.

It's a great hole on a great course.  #6 is one of the best par-4's I have ever played.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Stan Dodd

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2003, 10:22:01 PM »
Have any of you played #8 at Desert Dunes?  Par 3 over water with a sever dip.  It did take time to play. 3 was always a good score.
Stan
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2003, 07:04:47 AM »
Last one I played was Fishers last year but the green is no longer all green.  Front half is fairway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2003, 11:25:14 AM »
These are all nice stories about OLD Biarritz's.

Why aren't new ones being designed and built ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2003, 11:50:43 AM »
Pat,

I built one last year, but you will probably have to wait until next year to play it.  It's in northern Minnesota, so you will also have to travel some.  

I built it on a 320 yard par 4, feeling that length would best replicate for todays players the thrill MacDonald expected with a 220 yard hole.  As it stands right now, we also left just a narrow neck of trees in front of the green, so most won't go for it, but it seems trees blow down, and eventually, I think more will.  So many will either try to wedge on, or run a chip through the valley.

Almost certainly, the reason more aren't built is they really aren't practical,

1.  Getting a good cut on a steep valley slope is hard, especially if not hand mowing.  
2.  The valley space and 10 foot either side is uncuppable, so if there is budget pressure, adding 1000 SF of green is questioned and  frowned upon ???
3.  Some golfer is likely to 3 putt and complain.
4.  The steep slopes need a lot more water, so to maintain properly, the super will have to send out a hand water crew

I figured building it in northern Minnesota would be a plus on point 4, but we are waiting to see how much longer the valley takes to "de-ice" in the spring, and it may be another type of turf problem.  If I did it again, I would make sure to face it south for better warming.

Let's face facts.  Unless builing one for noterity of the course, or to make something completely different, it doesn't work as well as it used to, either for maintenance, or play, as no one runs the ball up anymore.  

Here's my question:  Just because it was a CB Mac idea, or even if it was once a great CBMac idea, does that necessarily mean its still one of the best 18 green ideas we could come up with today?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2003, 01:26:44 PM »
Jeff,

I never thought of the lower cut/mowing issue and the water issue, two valid points, and perhaps impediments to building a modern day Biarritz.

I would imagine that the Biarritz is climate restricted.
Still, they seem to work in the east-northeast, though some have had their fronts raised to fairway height.

I would say that CBM's concepts and greens seem timeless, but that they could be out of favor, and not the fad of the decade.  Lower green heights = higher speeds have made some of them obsolete under today's playing conditions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris_Blakely

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2003, 06:58:05 PM »
The last one I played was at Stonebridge Golf Links designed by George Bahto.  Since the course is a Seth Raynor tribute course and meant to embody his design standards, I am guessing that is why you guys did not mention it.  It is a wonderful example of the hole playing to a raised green that has a large swale in front of the green separating the green and the chipping area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2003, 07:15:36 PM »
Pat,
There are 4 or 5 Biarritz style greens on a new course called   Huntingdon Reserve which is south of Clermont, Fla.. Definitely overkill.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2003, 07:23:07 PM »
It is because of the playability issue. There is a leaning toward making longish par-3s less severe -- which I do not agree with across the board...but that's the reason. A client will find it difficult to understand the hard-hard components of both length and penal between tee and green. The swale is of no great concern. In fact, I've argued many times that a swale running through a green offers inherently more pin positions than the same feature inverted. With a raised, flat plateau of only 15-ft. in width you cannot place a pin fairly upon it. But in a swale you can. Obviously you will get examples, but they will be far and few between.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2003, 07:52:24 PM »
Last one I played was perhaps the best, #9 at Yale last June.  Last February was Yeamans Hall, #16 ('half' green Biarritz).  First ever played was #8 at Banks' Whippoorwill Club in 2000.

It just hit me that I'm 3 for 3 in hitting the greens at these Biarritz'.  #8 at Whippoorwill is 226 and I smoked a 2-iron, flying it to almost pin high and ending pin high 12 feet left.  YHC was a pured 3-iron flying to green and ending up 15 left.  2-iron at Yale landed directly in middle of back of swale and stayed there, but 3-putted.  Interesting thing is that I don't hit the ball that high and I don't put much spin on irons, so the greens were fairly soft, not their ideal playing conditions.

As for the Redans at these 3 locations, 3 for 3 in a bad way.  3 bogeys, one was a 3-putt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John Foley

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2003, 08:28:34 PM »
Loved the Biaritz at Arcadia. It seems close to over the top, but it works well. Has anyone ever played it w/ the pin up front? It seemed somewhat compact and if pinned there would be extremely tough.

Hurdzan built a good one at Cobblestone Creek (#4) outside Rochester, NY. Funny thing, first few time I played the hole, I did not like it at all. Once I realized that it was a biaritz, I love it. I know understand the hole so much more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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paul cowley

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2003, 09:46:58 PM »
...Love Golf Design has built two recently,
    one at the Retreat course on st. simons is.,opened for play in 2001.features a 14,000 sq. ft. green,all levels pinable on a reachable par four .
    another at Forest Oaks C.C. in greensboro n.c.,features a 10,000 sq. ft. green ,all levels pinable ,on a par five.currently under construction ,Forest Oaks will host the greater greensboro open this oct.
...should be interesting..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ville Nurmi

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Re: When's the last time you actually played one ?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2003, 01:44:38 AM »
Paul RIchards mentioned the biarritz in Black creek club. I think the photo is wonderful.

http://www.blackcreekclub.com/images/course/17.jpg

Living in Finland, we don´t have any of holes like that in country. I haven´t found one in Ireland either while studying this year.(More golf than study.) The 11th at Royal Dublin has at the moment a green little bit like biarritz green. It falls down first 15 yards and then there is a upper plateau.

Ville
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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