[JohnV]

I want to thank everyone who had a hand in the Winter Outing at Baltusrol yesterday.  Pat Mucci and Rick Wolfe should be thanked for getting everything setup with the club.  The speakers were all great.  Rick's talk on the history of Baltusrol was very interesting, particularly the stories of the clubhouse fire that caught the adulterer and the cutting of the tree on the old #12.  Bradley's presentation on what went into the making of Wintonbury Hills was an excellent wake-up piece for those of us who want to build a golf course and his openness to discuss some issues that happened here while we were gone was refreshing.  The presentations and discussion by Gil, Ron and Ron was wonderful.  We left before Mark Kuhn's talk but since we had met with him for a few hours on Friday, I'm sure I can say without fear of contradiction that it was very good.  I'd bet that any superintendent who was there and say Mark's new facility is very jealous today.

In addition, I want to thank the staff at Baltusrol for doing a wonderful job of providing us with everything we needed.  Mark Studer, George Pazin and I stayed at the club on Friday night and everyone was very gracious and help both days.

And to everyone I met and can put a face with a login name, I hope to see you again soon.

Thanks again to all.

[TEPaul]

I'd also like to thank Pat and Rick and Baltusrol and those who spoke and participated. It was more than successful--very interesting stuff and well rounded.

JohnV, you're not kidding superintendents everywhere would be jealous and envious of the maintenance process at Baltusrol, particularly the maintenance facility Mark Kuhns has there at Baltusrol. Face it, there're probably 50% of the golf clubs in America who would love to have Mark's maintenance facility as a CLUBHOUSE!

Any golf club would definitly feel comfortable in the hands of a superintendent like Mark and the kind of operation he runs but what he said about USGA and particularly the 2005 PGA tournament preparation they're getting into now and set-up was pretty damn funny when you juxtapose it to the general tenor and beliefs on this website! Apparently Mark may not have known particularly well or cared about the way a site like Golfclubatlas tends to look at these things because the slides and the things he was explaining about USGA/PGA tour set up and course preparation was just about the polar opposite of this website.

But, hey, that's what's going on out there fellas and it's interesting to hear it straight out without any slant, and it was interesting to hear it from a super like Mark Kuhn (who someone yesterday intelligently said later) sure has an impressive track record in that end of superintendency (being the super at sites holding major championship tournaments).

I could listen all day to the way Ron Prichard gets into the very early history of golf and architecture---just fascinating stuff when one hears it compared to the way things are today. On the distance issue Ron Prichard is the most adamant architect I've ever seen about ten times over and he's been that way for well over ten years.

Some of us took a stroll afterwards back down #18 Lower to around the cross bunkers on #17. The only thing I can say on architectural analysis or constructive architectural criticism is the group seemed to think those new bunkers on the right of #18 fairway were really awful. They probably should never have been added in the first place and the look of them, particularly from the green-end is terrible on that Tillinghast course! If Tillie could see them I have very little doubt he'd whip his flask out of his pocket and drain the whole damn thing in one long swig!  

And lastly, I'd like to say to Mrs Roll how sorry I am that those drunken thugs dragged her husband Baltus out of his house into the snow that winter night long ago and murdered him! That was a terrible thing but if it hadn't happened I'm not sure whether Baltusrol G.C. would be there or be what it is today or whether we all would've been there yesterday.

It was a very successful day and I hope it becomes an annual winter event!

[ChipOat]

Thank you Pat and Rick.

Given everything that Baltusrol provided, the club couldn't have many any profit at $40/head.  It was a great day and priced superbly.

Please advise ASAP as to next year's preliminary date.

[brad_miller]

Tom, did you make the walk out to 13, some new bunkering also out there!

[TEPaul]

Brad:

The group I was with didn't but maybe some others did.

[A_Clay_Man]

Any golf club would definitly feel comfortable in the hands of a superintendent like Mark and the kind of operation he runs but what he said about USGA and particularly the 2005 PGA tournament preparation they're getting into now and set-up was pretty damn funny when you juxtapose it to the general tenor and beliefs on this website! Apparently Mark may not have known particularly well or cared about the way a site like Golfclubatlas tends to look at these things because the slides and the things he was explaining about USGA/PGA tour set up and course preparation was just about the polar opposite of this website.

Tom- Could you elaborate? It sure sounds different from other usga stories, regarding F&F conditions. Any other doctrines or principles discussed, you could share with us less fortunate that could not attend?

[TEPaul]

Could I elaborate? Well, Mark spoke quite a bit, supplemented by some very good slides, about the USGA/PGA practice on what might be referred to as the principle of "fairway narrowing". The purpose of this according to the way Mark described it (and obviously the way the USGA/PGA percieves it) is to increase the challenge for good players.

Mark explained how the fairways were being tightened in the 260-320 area off the tee ("waisted in"). He spoke about the exact numerical decrease in overall course fairway acreage! According to the practice and principle of what they're doing right now it doesn't really effect the shorter players (presumably the majority of club members) because the "waisting in" doesn't start until 260 off the tee. He even mentioned how he thought it was acceptable for that level of player to carry their ball on the second shot accross that narrowed down "fairway waist" area to where it widens back out past 320.

Someone asked what would happen after the championship. On that you'd have to hear from others who were there as I'm not completely sure what Mark said about that. It sounded like he said the fairways would have to be widened back out to those bunkers or alternatively perhaps the bunkers could be brought closer in to those new narrowed fairway "waists". I'm not sure about that but I sure hope Baltusrol doesn't plan on the latter permanently.

[TEPaul]

The other thing Mark Kuhns explained is how comprehensively, quickly and efficiently the club is sodding areas surrounding greens (and bunkers?) with straight blue grass. Something like that probably isn't at all in line with the general architectural and strategic thinking on this site either. Generally, blue grass really dominates and creates a recovery situation that's pretty one dimensional (basically a SW). Blue grass also creates a very consistent and attractive look in coloration and otherwise on a golf course to some but not to others.

But, as I said above, hey, it was interesting to hear this stuff straight out with no slant (towards the apparent bias of Golfclubatlasers), to hear the way it's done and the way the USGA/PGA and the club and superintendency thinks about it and does it. As I said that's what goes on out there in major championship set-ups and preparations fellas! It was just sort of funny because if I know the way this site generally thinks about those types of things (I think I do know the way this site thinks) and it was just about the polar opposite!  

[A_Clay_Man]

How much of the polarity is in relation to the proper meld for Baltusrol? Is that how 'we' think? Please, assume I know nothing of Baltusrol, which is the case (other than some story of a murder)

[Steve Curry]

Pat and all,

I ahd a great time and can't thank you enough for sponoring another wonderful day.

Thanks,
Steve

[Jim_Kennedy]

Best 40 bucks I've spent in a while. Thanks to Pat and everyone who put it together.

Adam,
Much of what Mark talked about was preparation for the PGA but I was left with the impression that a much different Baltusrol would begin to emerge after the tournament was over. Mark showed photos of what the bunkers looked like in the '30's and how he'd like to re-establish that look, along with other elements that favor GCA, like bringing the green on the 4th hole back to its original size and restoring its bunkers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John V, Steve Curry, et. al.,

Thanks.

I thought that the event turned out rather well.
I too enjoyed each and every presentation.
I only wish we had more time for the Q & A periods.
I think we learned from last year's get together and provided an improved product this year.

If I continue with the winter get togethers, I think we'll retain yesterdays format.

I want to thank Rick Wolffe, Bulletproof Brad Klein, Ron Forse, Gil Hanse, Ron Prichard and Mark Kuhns for their participation and terrific presentations, I think we could have listened to them for the rest of the weekend.

The critical item in making the get together attractive and successful is the selection of the speakers and their topics.
Interesting topics from diverse presenters seems to appeal to everyone.  I ask all of those attending, and those who didn't attend to make suggestions on who they would like to hear make a presentation, and what topics would interest them.

Please do not suggest the inclusion of a round of golf.
This is a golf course architecture get together, not an outing.

Dinner afterwards was a nice time to get to know everyone.

Baltusrol did a wonderful job in making us feel welcome and comfortable.

A Clayman,

I too sensed mixed messages regarding the preparation of the golf course for the 2005 PGA and the return of the golf course to its pre-tournament configuration.  With the extensive sodding of the Blue Grass rough, I didn't get the impression that the golf course would be returned to its prior condition in the immediate future.  I sensed that permanent changes are being made, but, perhaps I was distracted and didn't understand what was being said.

[TEPaul]

What Mark Kuhns said about the way Baltusrol will come out of their PGA championship preparation and setup is what ought to be most interesting and important to us. It may have been a mixed message he gave yesterday--I don't know---whatever he said about that wasnt' that clear to me. Mostly he was talking about the things they were planning on doing for that championship not what they planned to do coming out of it!

What the course will look like and play like in that PGA tournament setup is probably not the type of thing most on here agree with. But we have to live with that for now--as that's the way the thinking goes these days and in past years with USGA/PGA.

It'd be great if some of the principles of classic course architecture, the original architectural principles of a course like Baltusrol, not just this modern tournament setup architecture, could be discussed on here with the likes of Mark Kuhns, or Rick Wolffe or the club's present green or golf chairman or anyone else at Baltusrol who's interested in this subject!

Because from yesterday I think I can safely say that this tournament setup type architecture or maintenance practices that meld into this championship tournament setup architecture is a pretty long way from how a course like Baltusrol was originally designed, the way it should look and the way it should play at its best!

[GeoffreyC]

I'd also like to thank the club for hosting us, Pat for his hard work in organizing the program and all the speakers for their insights.

It was great to see old friends and to meet several new ones. I hope this will be an annual event.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
As we know, he wasn't there to discuss what Baltusrol was going to do after they host PGA but yes, it would be nice to discuss the original principles behind the courses with men like Rick Wolfe and Mark Kuhns.
There were other indicators of the direction the club may take after the PGA. MK mentioned naturalizing areas with native grasses and returning bunkers to their original look. He touched on the positions of those bunkers in the future, bringing them back into play, the width of fairways and a couple of other points, like the 4th green.

I think change is on the horizon. When I hear a super who has every conceivable piece of modern technology available to him, including a budget to match, allude to his club looking at  some of the ideas mentioned above as part of their future, I think change is on the horizon.  

 

[wsmorrison]

A sincere thanks to Pat, Rick, and the entire staff at Baltusrol that made for a wonderful day to enjoy getting together with great friends, making new friends, and getting a heck of a lot of great information from architects, superintendents, and enthusiasts.  

It seemed clear to me that the bunkering and fairway pinching makes little to no sense for the membership of the club.  Mark stated that the intention was to move the bunkers in towards the pinched-in fairways after the PGA in 2005.  If this is truly the case, then we have much to be sorry for.  The recently added bunkering work was poorly executed and the narrowing of the fairways so that the existing bunkers are 10 yards or more in the rough will look and play ridiculously for the PGA.  Moving the bunkers inwards towards the new fairway lines is absolutely incomprehensible.   I wish the club would take a different stand.  The hopes of having future championships is evidently driving their decisions.  Better that they follow the example of Shinnecock Hills that will make changes for the Open and revert back to their typical setup following the event.  I hope my take is wrong, but it seemed pretty clear that this was the intention.

Regards,
Wayne

[Patrick_Mucci]

wsmorrisson, et. al.,

Can we start a seperate thread on those topics ?

[TEPaul]

JimK;

I hope that's so the Lower course's direction coming out of the PGA Championship will be back to more of the look and design of Tillinghast. Mark did seem to allude to that.

And I'm very sorry I didn't get to speak with you yesterday!

[mike_malone]

 I too want to thank Pat,Rick,the Baltusrol staff("baltusrol "has always been a tongue twister for me-but not after the story of that poor farmer.I'll bet those thieves believed in overwatering)
   I visited the maintenance facilities--state of the art! Mark had asked some of his staff to "volunteer" to be there with us.They deserve credit as well.
     
     Pat
           I always like the interactions.I wish we had taken more opportunity to engage in a more specifics oriented Q+A with three of the finest architects practicing today.

    For instance,i am less interested  in their opinion on the USGA then how they made decisions about what to do in the field when confronted with a problem about how to restore "exactly " or "sympathetically".When we have that practical talent there let's learn from them what we cannot learn from reading something another time.

       In Brad's presentation we were able to have a little more of that.If you had not brought up the"Golfweek" issue i am not sure it would have been broached.

   Meeting everyone is always the best---"I am not alone!!!"

[TEPaul]

I think Mayday has a great point there! When we have three really good architects particularly three that've concentrated on restoration architecture it would be worthwhile to just get all the questions and answers out we possibly can. I don't think they'd mind and that's the part that really is a great education for us in the audience. Maybe more of that next year should be in order for the agenda.

I think I got a pretty good sense yesterday that when you have three architects like those ones fielding a one good question their answers and observations can take up to 10 or more minutes per question.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

Time seems to be a limited commodity.

I wish we had more time to take advantage of the Q&A session, but we have a program, an agenda, and an obligation to the host club to end our get together at 5:00 pm, since they needed to rearrange the room for dinner service for their members.

We found out that four (4) speakers is ideal.
Two in the morning and two after lunch.
Perhaps, at future get togethers we can secure a seperate room for dinner where we can continue our discussions without interfering with the club's members.

I was up at 5:00 am and at Baltusrol a little after 7:00 am and got home at about 9:30.  That's a long day.  
Yet, there wasn't a lull in the program or the activities from start to finish.  So where do you get additional time

At this time of year, a club also needs a rock solid committment with respect to preparing for dinner.
They need to know how much food to have available, staffing needs, etc., etc..

I think I've hit on a good agenda and schedule, with a seperate dinner function rounding out the night, but, it's easier said then done, and we'd have to require non-refundable deposits for dinner as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The problem is, we alot time to each speaker, and fit those times into an overall schedule that fits within constraints determined by the club.

I built some flexibility into the schedule as evidenced by the extension of the Q & A session by a half an hour for the three architects and by almost a half an hour for Mark Kuhns.
Brad Kleins Q&A was extended by 20-25 minutes, and could have gone on longer, but the club had scheduled us to have lunch from 12:15 to 1:15 and we had to adhere to their schedule.

The good news is that some are clamoring for more interaction, more time together, but, time is at a premium, limited, and must be meted out within the constraints of the club's programs.

I think a seperate room for dinner might solve most of the requests for more time, more interaction, but again, at this time of year, that luxury may be limited by the club's evening activities.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'd like to add my thanks and appreciation to Pat for organizing such a wonderful day and to all the speakers who made the day such an educational experience for me. It was great to meet everyone and associate faces with names. As a newcomer to the world of golf architecture, it was a day I won't forget. I was sorry that I couldn't stay for dinner. I hope this day can be done  again.
Steve

[George Pazin]

I'd also like to echo everyone thanking Pat, Rick and the various speakers. Great putting faces to names, too - we had a good chuckle afterwards discussing our various misconceived impressions of what we were expecting everyone to look like! For a bunch of angry pit bulls online, we're really a pretty amiable bunch in person.

Special thanks to Rick Wolffe for giving this muni golfer a glimpse into what the young guys who get to stay at the ANGC feel like. Wow, lots of wonderful history within those walls.

I kind of liked having it in Jersey, too - 12 hours in a car was never more enjoyable than riding with John & Mark. Thanks guys.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

Thanks for your gifts to the speakers.

Jim Kennedy made a good suggestion for next year.
At the start of the get together each attendee will stand up and introduce themselves so that we don't have to strain our eyes looking at name tags.

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