[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Let the Games Begin Once Again...

Golfweek’s America’s Best Modern 2004

1.   Sand Hills
2.   Pacific Dunes
3.   Bandon Dunes
4.   Whistling Straits (Straits)
5.   Pete Dye GC
6.   Shadow Creek
7.   The Golf Club
8.   Muirfield Village
9.   Kinlich GC
10.   Honors Course
11.   Friar’s Head*
12.   TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium)
13.   Coscowilla on Lake Oronee
14.   Spyglass Hill
15.   Wade Hampton Club
16.   The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island (oops. Slipped 1 spot  )
17.   Dallas National GC*
18.   Wolf Run GC
19.   Wild Horse
20.   The Rim
21.   Blackwolf Run (River)
22.   Kingsley
23.   World Woods (Pine Barrens)
24.   Harbour Town
25.   Arcadia Bluffs
26.   Castle Pines
27.   Paa Ko Ridge
28.   Double Eagle
29.   Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)
30.   Karsten Creek
31.   Desert Forest
32.   Long Cove GC
33.   Hazeltine National
34.   Calusa Pines
35.   Mayacama GC
36.   Cog Hill (No. 4-Dubsdred)
37.   The Sanctuary
38.   Forest Highlands (Canyon)
39.   Estancia
40.   Eugene CC
41.   Lost Dunes
42.   Galloway National
43.   Olde Farm GC
44.   Princeville GC (Prince)
45.   Victoria National
46.   Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)
47.   Musgrove Mill
48.   Quintero Golf & Country Club
49.   Atlantic GC
50.   Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)
51.   Ocean Forest GC
52.   Crooked Stick GC
53.   Shoal Creek GC
54.   Kapalua GC (Plantation)
55.   Hawk’s Ridge
56.   Cascata*
57.   Jupiter Hills GC (Hills)
58.   Crosswater at Sunriver
59.   Stonewall GC (Old)
60.   Harvester GC
61.   Hawktree GC
62.   Mauna Kea Beach
63.   Links of North Dakota at Red Mike
64.   Raven Course at Snowshoe Mountain
65.   Old Tabby Links
66.   Old Memorial
67.   Crown Colony CC
68.   Wolf Creek GC
69.   Robert Trent Jones International GC
70.   Bear’s Club
71.   Caledonia Golf & Fish Club
72.   Valhalla GC
73.   Huntsville GC
74.   Lake Las Vegas GC (SouthShore)
75.   Forest Creek GC
76.   Hidden Creek GC*
77.   Chechessee Creek Club
78.   Flint Hills National
79.   Sahalee CC (North/South)
80.   The Preserve
81.   Bellerive CC
82.   Barona Creek GC
83.   Butler National
84.   Southern Highlands GC
85.   Bulle Rock
86.   Barton Creek CC (Canyons)
87.   Secession GC
88.   The Gallery (North)
89.   The Farm GC
90.   Pumpkin Ridge GC (Ghost Creek)
91.   John’s Island Club (West)
92.   Challenge at Manele Bay
93.   Caves Valley GC
94.   Pine Tree GC
95.   Troon Golf & Country Club
96.   The Powder Horn
97.   The Stone Canyon Club
98.   Grandfather Golf & Country Club
99.   Olde Kinderhook GC*
100.   Oak Tree GC

*Newcomer

[DTaylor18]

Thanks for posting these Mike!

[A_Clay_Man]

For comparison

America’s Best 2003

1. Sand Hills Golf Club (p)
2. Pacific Dunes (r)
3. Whistling Straits (r)
4. Bandon Dunes (r)
5. Pete Dye Golf Club (p)
6. Shadow Creek Golf Club (d)
7. Muirfield Village Golf Club (p)
8. The Golf Club (p)
9. Honors Course (p)
10. Kinloch Golf Club (p)
11. Spyglass Hill Golf Course (r)
12. Wade Hampton Club (p)
13. TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium Course) (r)
14. The Golf Club at Cuscowilla (r)
15. Ocean Course at Kiawah Island (r)
16. Wolf Run Golf Club (p)
17. Blackwolf Run Golf Club
18. Wild Horse Golf Club (d)
19. World Woods Golf Club
20. Harbour Town Golf Links (r)
21. The Rim
22. Double Eagle Golf Club (p)
23. Paa-Ko Ridge Golf Club (d)
24. Hawk’s Ridge Golf Club (p)
25. Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry Course) (p)
26. Arcadia Bluffs (d)
27. The Sanctuary (p)
28. Karsten Creek Golf Club (d)
29. Mayacama Golf Club (p)
30. Forest Highlands Golf Club (Canyon Course) (p)
31. Desert Forest Golf Club (p)
32. Cog Hill Golf Club (No. 4 - Dubsdread) (d)
33. Eugene Country Club (p)
34. Hazeltine National Golf Club (p)
35. Long Cove Golf Club (p)
36. Estancia (p)
37. Castle Pines Golf Club (p)
38. Victoria National Golf Club (p)
39. Princeville Golf Club(Prince Course) (r)
40. Atlantic Golf Club (p)
41. Olde Farm Golf Club (p)
42. Musgrove Mill Golf Club (p)
43. Galloway National Golf Club (p)
44. Kapalua Golf Club (Plantation Course) (r)
45. Quintero Golf Club (p)
46. Crooked Stick Golf Club (p)
47. Bear’s Club (p)
48. Lost Dunes Golf Club (p)
49. Shoal Creek Golf Course (p)
50. Stonewall Golf Club (p)
51. Old Tabby Links (p)
52. Ocean Forest Golf Club (p)
53. Longaberger Golf Club (d)
54. Raven Course at Snowshoe Mountain (r)
55. Jupiter Hills Golf Club (Hills Course) (p)
56. Kingsley Club (p)
57. Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort (d)
58. Kiawah Island Club (Cassique) (p)*
59. Secession Golf Club (p)
60. Valhalla Golf Club (p)
61. Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club (Witch Hollow Course) (p)
62. The Mirabel Club (p)*
63. Calusa Pines Golf Club (p)*
64. Crosswater at Sunriver (p)
65. The Powder Horn (d)
66. Flint Hills National Golf Club (p)*
67. Forest Creek Golf Club (p)
68. The Stone Canyon Club (p)*
69. Mauna Kea Beach Golf Course (r)
70. Hawktree Golf Club (d)
71. Barton Creek Country Club (Canyons Course) (r)
72. Robert Trent Jones International Golf Club (p)
73. Grandfather Golf & Country Club (p)
74. Chechessee Creek Club (p)
75. Huntsville Golf Club (p)
76. Caledonia Golf & Fish Club (d)
77. Sahalee Country Club (North/South Course) (p)
78. Lake Las Vegas Golf Club (SouthShore Course) (p)
79. Challenge at Manele Bay (r)
80. The Gallery (p)
81. Old Memorial (p)
82. The Farm Golf Club (p)
83. Bulle Rock Golf Course (d)
84. Harvester Golf Club (d)*
85. Crown Colony Country Club (p)*
86. Tullymore Golf Club (d)*
87. PGA West Golf Club (Stadium Course) (r)
88. John’s Island Club (West Course) (p)
89. Bellerive Country Club (p)
90. Firestone Country Club
91. Irish Course
92. Troon Golf & Country Club (p)
93. Caves Valley Golf Club (p)
94. Barona Creek Golf Course (d)
95. Pine Tree Golf Club (p)
96. Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club
97. Black Creek Club (p)*
98. Wolf Creek Golf Club (d)*
99. Quarry LaQuinta (p)
100. World Woods Golf Club
 

[THuckaby2]

Again, yawn... someone wake me up when meaningful raqtings are posted.  Classic/Modern... what a bunch of pansies.

 

TH

ps I am just giving crap to my GW rater friends here.
pss - at least they do continue to get #1 correct.

[Mike Worth]

Wow, as a "known member" of Hidden Creek, it certainly feels great to be able to play such a great course that has now been recognized by 2 National Publications.

One wonders if Golfweek, similar to Golf Magazine, neglected to check with Matt Ward prior to publishing.  

[John_Conley]

Again, yawn... someone wake me up when meaningful raqtings are posted.  

Tom:

Meaningful rankings will be posted when Golf Digest goes to Top 150 to account for the growth of courses in America and stops using "tradition" as a criteria.

[Carlyle Rood]

Please refresh my memory.  I don't recall how a course qualifies to be "modern."  Would that be in the last ten, twenty, thirty years?

C

[Mike Worth]

Carlyle, I think the criteria is "built after 1960"

[Jim Franklin]

Good point John. The top 150 would make a lot of sense. They need to some how take Tradition into account, but not overweight it so much. I am a firm believer in the traditions of the great game of golf, but just because Ben Hogan or Bobby Jones cannot play Friar's Head, you cannot penalize Friar's Head( or any other great new course).

[Carlyle Rood]

Carlyle, I think the criteria is "built after 1960"

I think it must be later than that, judging from omissions.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Carlyle,
It is 1960, but I would be interested to hear your omissions.

SS1,
You are a lucky man to be able to play Hidden Creek everyday. It could have debuted a lot higher, in my opinion.

[Jim_Michaels]

As further proof of the manipulation of the list, I submit the stubbornly high ranking of PDGC. It's good. Probably about twentieth on this list. And, it is somewhat inaccessible out in West Virginia, yet somehow it stays at the same ranking. Has Brad consulted on this one yet? And John Conley, I think your suggeston for Golf Digest is an excellent one.  Tradition affects score in a subtle way, even without a distinct category, and I believe the bizarreness of the actual tradition scores has been discussed here in the past.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim, I completely disagree with your assessment of the Pete Dye GC. I think it is one of the best inland courses I have played. It is a pain in the butt to get to, but I would play it everyday if I could.

[John_Conley]

Jim:

For all of the flak GD gets, most of it seems to center on the problem of trying to keep worthy old clubs in the Top 100 and using "Tradition" as the mechanism to do so.

If they added 50 courses you could keep all the Ross courses and add deserving new ones.  The standard of Top 100 in 1984 would be the same as the Top 150 today, so it is NOT dilution.

Why don't you like Brad?  Your problem with him has clearly crossed over to the personal.

[klangone]

Interesting that the Farm dropped after deciding to redo all the greens.  Hopefully it will come back up next year......I think it reopens this spring/summer fully.

Secession dropping is probably a direct result of the weather of last year......it never fully played fast and firm all year.  

I've heard some negative things about the ownership of Pete Dye Golf Club......that it might be turned into some sort of resort.......hopefully it won't impact the wonderful course.

I think Dallas National is awfully high and cannot agree with The Rim being that high also.

Desert Forest, Long Cove and Sanctuary all deserve better.

[THuckaby2]

Again, yawn... someone wake me up when meaningful raqtings are posted.  

Tom:

Meaningful rankings will be posted when Golf Digest goes to Top 150 to account for the growth of courses in America and stops using "tradition" as a criteria.

Sounds good to me.  In the meantime, I still can't believe
so much interest is given to GW, the wussiest of all
ranking systems.  Get some nads and compare Sand Hills
to Cypress, you mamas-boys.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...

Sand Hills is better.  

[John_Conley]

Get some nads and compare Sand Hills
to Cypress, you mamas-boys.

Tom:

Comparing Sand Hills to Bonita Bay's Cypress is done on the Modern.  Comparing Sand Hills to Cypress Point makes as much sense as a recruiting list comparing guards and post players or quarterbacks and linebackers.

[Jim_Michaels]

Why John, because they are both golf courses? The distinction exists in Golfweek because it enables the bottom  75 courses on the Modern list to get published in the magazine, creating advertising and consulting opportunities. ($$$$$$$$$)  Don't argue that you can't compare the joy of playing two courses just because they were built 80 years apart. Frankly Cypress and Sand Hills have more in common than most of Sand Hills' contemporaries have with it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim Michaels;

There are roughly 18,000 courses in the U.S.

Heaven forbid that Golfweek selects 200 of them for recognition rather than 100.  How many of those courses actually contribute advertising $$$$$$$ (did I enter enough $ signs? )?  Two, three?

I agree with your last statement, however.  I respect the distinction that is being made, but in many cases, how does Pacific Dunes, for instance, differ fundamentally from Lahinch?

[Jim_Michaels]

Mike, Have you actually LOOKED at the magazine, at the number of ads that mention the list? The modern list exists to sell ad space for real estate developments and resorts. All these raters on this site are so busy defending themselves that they can't see the forest for the trees.

[THuckaby2]

Get some nads and compare Sand Hills
to Cypress, you mamas-boys.

Tom:

Comparing Sand Hills to Bonita Bay's Cypress is done on the Modern.  Comparing Sand Hills to Cypress Point makes as much sense as a recruiting list comparing guards and post players or quarterbacks and linebackers.

Oh please John, do you really believe that?  Funny, I played golf on both of these courses.  Silly me, I had no idea how different they were.

They are both golf courses, they are both great, they sure as hell can be compared.

And Cirba had the nads to do so, on another thread... the other one where all raters are being bashed and Dr. Klein pilloried.

In any case, I was just having fun with this, because I know so many GW raters.  But since you seem to have taken it seriously, well... don't.  It's all in fun.  I don't find any of these rating systems perfect.... just do understand that GW does fall under "any".

 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Ok Tom in a green plaid skirt. lol I say Cypress is ahead of Sand Hills. lol

[THuckaby2]

Good man, JB.  Though I do put them in the reverse order right now, as much as that hurts me as a homer, the only wrong answer there is to not give one.

TH

[klangone]

Looking at this list.....I was shocked not to find Torrey Pines on it !  I mean if this great architectual masterpiece is good enough for the Open, why is it not good enough for the GW top 100?  Oh wait a minute.......it must be on the Classic list seeing it was built before 1960.

Nope not there also.......must be a misprint.

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