[Dan_Belden]

Tom:   I don't think that anyone here would argue about California having better courses than Ohio ..  Can you honestly sit there and say that a course like the Golf Club doesn't compare favorably with lets say Riviera, or LA country Club.  I would certainly rather play the courses in Columbus than San Diego.  
  Comparing High Pointe to Coldstream and NCR.  Come on.  And Pennsylvania's top seven aren't really any better or worse than Ohio's top seven.  Aronomik and Inverness, ,Fox Chapel and Camargo, Oakmont and The Golf Club or Muirfied.  This is a stupid arguement.  They all sound good to me.  

[David Wigler]

Tom,

I'm with Dan on Pennsylvania (Although I tend to add Pine Valley and subtract Oakmont and Fox Chapel).  In a head-to-head match, I go:

1's Merion over TGC (But this is not a blowout and I would get on a plane tomorrow to play TGC)

2's Oakmont over Inverness (Again this is close.  I do not know if you have seen Inverness but the tree removal was brilliant)

3's Muirfield Village over Huntington Valley

4's Sciota over Lancaster (This is really close and I could be talked into flipping here)

5's Double Eagle over Rolling Green

6's Camargo crushing Philly C.C.

7's Lehigh over Canterbury

By my count, Ohio wins 4 to 3.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

With all due respect -- Double Eagle had its moment in the sun -- where is the beef relating to the architectural aspects for the course. You're the guy who boasted the layout is bulletproof top 100 -- I don't agree at all.

Ditto the fanfare you attach to Scioto -- the course is still a mixture design bag and minus the Jones / Nicklaus tie-in doesn't have the same depth as such other layouts as TGC, MV, Inverness and Camargo IMHO.

I have not played Kirtland so I can't comment on its inclusion or exclusion but I certainly respect the people who have opined on its qualities and I hope to play it this year.

I will say this again -- The Golf Club is rarely discussed on GCA or other forums because so few people have played it outside Ohio. The Pete Dye layout is top shelf stuff and how it doesn't get much more attention for its architectural pedigree amazes me.

P.S. David -- let's not forget what side of the Delaware that PV is on -- OK?

[Doug Sobieski]

David Wigler:

I've got to agree with Matt about Double Eagle. There's not much at Double Eagle to get too excited about. I think it's lucky to have been #22 on the Modern list last year, and I fully expect it to continue its fall this week.

If Scioto was billed as a Dick Wilson design with no mention of Donald Ross or Jack Nicklaus do you think it would still be as highly regarded as it is?

For what it's worth (probably not much!), the first time I played TGC it was with a player that had missed the cut at the Memorial. He couldn't believe that he'd never heard of the course, and he immediately put it into the top five he'd ever seen!

All the best,

Sobe

[T_MacWood]

Tom D
How many of these courses have you seen: Mayfield, Hyde Park, Shaker Hts, Westbrook, Congress Lake, Pepper Pike, Zanesville, Springfield, Sleepy Hollow, Champions, Kirtland and Sylvania?

There are big name courses in Ohio that everyone tries to hit...there are a numer of lesser known courses that are equally good.

I'm not sure how the top 2 or the top 7 rate in Ohio against Pa or Mass, but there are few states with the volume of excellent courses (20 or 30 deep).

[Dan Grossman]

Tom MacWood -

Have you played or seen Highland Meadows in Toledo?  I am curious as to how you see its merits compared to a place like Sylvania CC.  

Inverness is obviously fantastic, but the second tier in Toledo made up of Sylvania, Toledo CC and Highland Meadows is pretty good for a low income city of 300,000, IMO.

[jg7236]

David,

I agree with your list for Ohio Golf to the fulliest.  That is interesting that you are starting a thread about Ohio Golf, eventhough you live in that horrible state called Michigan.  The list you have is to the tee, but some other course that I admire are The Heritage Club, Yankee Trace, Cooks Creek, Hickory Hills, and Eaglesticks.  Have any of you heard anything about the new coure that is in the development just north of Columbus, Ohio that is being designed by David Savic and John Cook.  The course is going to be called North Star.

Cheers,

John

P.S.  If I mispelled any words, I had a couple of glasses of wine.

[T_MacWood]

Dan
I have not played Highland Meadow, but it has been recommended to me. In fact the guy who felt Syvania was the equal of Inverness was very high on HM (and not so high on Toledo).

One of the reason there are so many good courses in Ohio is because there are so many medium to large cities. Six different metropolitan areas have hosted major championships and most of them multiple championships: Toledo (Inverness), Cleveland (Canterbury, Country Club), Akron (Firestone), Columbus (Scioto, Columbus, Muifield V), Dayton (Moraine, Miami Valley, NCR) and Cinti (Kenwood). I'm not aware of any state that is close to six. (You can add a number of courses and Youngstown if you consider the old Western Open a major).

These cities were all relatively large and prosperous at the turn and early part of the 20th C. A lot of great architects made there way into the state and hit not only these cities but the next level of towns: Youngstown, Springfield, Newark, Canton, Mansfield, Ashland, Portsmouth, Zanesville, Stuebenville, etc. It would take much time and effort to "do" the entire state of Ohio.

[Dan Grossman]

Tom -

I have played a couple of holes at HM and would think that it is not quite the equal of Sylvania, but a very good classic golf course.  Much better than Toledo CC, even though they were both designed by Park.

I agree with you that the state is littered with neat old courses that are just below everyone's radar screen.  Columbus also has Scarlet, of which I am not a huge fan, but used to be in some top 100s.  Westbrook is one of the best Donald Ross courses that I have played.  If you haven't seen it, you might enjoy looking at Ashland CC which is an old Willie Park, Jr.  While not as good as Sylvania CC in my opinion, has some neat holes and is fun to play.  

[Steve Lang]

 

ToodledleOH.. Sylvania CC, Highland Meadows and TCC.. are all nicely kept, but certainly not great.  I played them all in the 60's and we used to have swim meets there as well in high school.  I'm almost surprised  no one has mentioned the old Heather Downs North course too..  I feel like having a Matt Ward moment but I will refrain and just say that these bastions of old money in T-Town are challenging tight courses, but outdated in this age of equipment..  Locally they are nice places to play out of.  Heck, one can have a similar and harder time at Ottawa Park!!

I don't think Se Ri has used more than a driver and 9 iron on 90% of the HM holes in winning there a bunch of times in the Jamie Farr LPGA tourney.  I shot 78 there a couple of years ago without much of any recent local knowledge and DUI..

I would suggest that every great course design in Ohio has been driven by the mild, upper river basin type topography found there.  

The northwest quadrant was flattened by the glaciers and was once a great swamp, eventually draining into Lake Erie.  Those last erosion channels (creeks) on the otherwise flat clay are what give Inverness, Sylvania, Highland Meadows, and TCC their character.  Golf courses were just waiting to be discovered on them.  

Central Ohio and Southern Ohio drain to the Ohio River and the walls of ice which woolly mammoths once strode along east to west in the heart of it all cut some much bigger river valleys and such leading down to the Ohio.  The give and take of the glaciers left some interesting landforms in border with the northern flat-lands..  again golf courses were just waiting to be discovered on them.  There's a variety of landforms not unlike those in the NC sandhills, except there's clay or good loam there..

NE Ohio's river valleys and settings are perhaps the best, which ceratinly fuels the Columbus vs Cleveland debate..

I think there's more gems on the county levels as well for the common man.

[mark chalfant]

   Dave,

Ohio is very strong through the top 15 or so, especially

in classic era architecture

Of courses I  know I'd  prefer :

1.  The  Golf Club
2.  Camargo
3.  Brookside-   right now  one of  Ross'  very best
4.  Muirfield  Village
5.  NCR-  superb  routing   and splendid  greens

6.  Moraine
7.  Inverness- sorely lacking in memorable  par threes

or  strategically compelling par fives.

8.  Kirtland
9.  Mayfield
10 The  Country Club


11 Canterbury
12 Hyde  Park - some great holes  by Ross & Tom Bendelow
13 Congress  Lake
 

[T_MacWood]

Steve
From an architectural point of view what does Inverness have that Sylvania does not?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom M:  I've been to none of those courses, as you probably know since you have a copy of The Confidential Guide.

But are any of them among the top 7 in Ohio?  If not, then that wasn't my point.

Dave W:  I have your matches at Pennsylvania 5, Ohio 2 (Muirfield Village and Camargo).  And would Camargo crush Fox Chapel, which didn't make your seven for PA?  I've always thought it was a better course, but the recent posts on Fox Chapel make me wonder if it's much better today.

[Steve Lang]

 

Tom McW,

Though I haven't played Inverness or Sylvania in some years, I have more gca interest in seeing Inverness now after the tree removal program, than seeing Sylvania.  Timing was bad last year with the Sr. Open but I have friends at both and I will play them this summer with a new eye..  But now, as i remember.. Architecturally related:

I remember feeling more intimidated by the bunkering at Inverness than at Sylvania. (Inv +1)

Three shotters almost toss up (Halved)

Owing to the plot space and all, I feel the onslaught of 2 shotters at Inverness is more varied and challenging than those at Sylvania. (Inv. +2)

I like the finish of each course in their own ways, but kinda like the two par 5's back-to-back coming at the end at Sylvania.. (Inv +1)

The one-shotters at Sylvania seem redundant from the back tees, then there's that long one on the back.. reminds me of the difficulty, as a kid, at Ottawa Park's original #18.   At Inverness I remember more variety of lengths.  (Inv +2) thru 5 items..

[T_MacWood]

Steve
Both courses are jammed onto to a realtively small property....in fact if anything Sylvania is a much more interesting routing,not quite as jammed in. The rows of back and forth parallel holes is not a strength at Inverness. The 18th at Sylvania is a par-4.

Sylvania also does not have the mongral Fazio holes.

The 2-shot holes are more challenging at Inverness (but Sylvania's are no push over)...are they also more varied and interesting?

Sylvania's par-3's 170, 181, 175, 175 and 229 (at least three of them over the Ottawa River). Inverness 200, 231 and 172 (two Fazio mongrals). Are you certain Inverness +2?

Which course has the more variety and which has the more interesting terrain, natural features, green complexes?

[T_MacWood]

Tom D.
Kirtland is definitely in the top 7. I'd put the restored Brookside in the top 7 also.

In my version of the confidential guide:

Merion 10
Oakmont 8
Manufact. 7
Phila 7
Lancaster 7
Stonewall 7
Fox Chapel 6

TGC 9
Inverness 8.5
Muirfield 8
Camargo 7
Scioto 7
Doubel Eagle 7
Canterbury 6

By my calculation it looks like Ohio 2-1-4. A top 7 is not a good measurement of a states overall quality.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom MacWood:

I don't doubt a top 7 is not reflective of a state's overall depth of courses but the point of this thread was to simply itemize the top 7 and David W's original point was that Ohio only trailed NY and California for such a distinction.

I disagreed with that and mentioned how Pennsy and the Garden State would be right there for equal consideration.

One last thing -- you would have Inverness over Oakmont. Really?

[T_MacWood]

Those were Tom's numbers not mine. The idea of judging one state against another without playing all the top courses (in each state) is an exercise in futility.

[Jim Sweeney]

Mr. MAcWood has mentioned Springfield CC two or three times in this thread but his mentioned has gotten no notice until now....

I've played most of the courses mentioned so far, and generally agree with DAn Belden's list. However, discounting conditioning and poor planning (over tree-ing of the course) and concentrating solely on design, this Ross course could be a strong contender for top 7 or 10 in the Buckeye state. Put it another way, with a little spit and polish and a good chainsaw, Springfield deserves to figure prominently in this discussion.

Someone made reference to OSU Scarlet. IMO the course attracts far more attention than it deserves (the scarlet hordes are already knocking on my door) because of its McKenzie design. Most people forget or don't know that it was built after his death. The routing is very good but overall it lacks the ingenuity we so admire in his most prominent works. Though I cannot catalog changes which have been made over the years, the result is a solid, serviceable course. Conditioning has been an issue each time I've played, despite the reports I hear about improvements in that area. That said, it's been a little over a year since my last trip there, and maybe my observations about condition are outdated.

[mark chalfant]

 Jesplusone,

You make a good point.   Springfield is a very fine Ross

routing with several excellent holes. The front nine is

especially memorable.  #1   and 7-10    tumble over some

very  cool, hilly property.

 In addition,  there are  excellent greens,  about  4-5

of these  are  bold and unforgettable in their contours.


Much more interesting than  Scarlet or Mountain Ridge,

in my opinion.


  Mark

[Steve Lang]

 

Tom MacW,
Late edit Friday 27th.. I forgot to say that I last played and memories are from the tips at Sylvania but only the second in from the tips at Inverness.. The Par threes from those tees are more varied in length.. And yes i know the 18th is a par 4 at Sylvania, 16 & 17 are par 5's that I remember decided a match.  The 18th there is good, but was uneventful for my memory banks..

Architecturally there are many courses in Ohio and elsewhere that have up and back routings to squeeze in the course.. I don't hold that against Inverness, but if you you want, then its Inverness now +1 after 6 items..

One more item.. folks friendliness.. Sylvania wins hands down, so I have the grudge match squared after 7 items..

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