[CHrisB]

It is been frequently said that the 4th at NGLA is a superior redan than the original at North Berwick. There are other redans that have claims to being superior to the original as well.

But what about the Eden? Is the original Eden, the 11th at The Old Course, still the best of its type, or are there any Edens out there that are superior?

If you have a candidate, please state why you think it is better than the original.

If you think that the original Eden is still the best...why hasn't anyone been able to build a better Eden than the original?

[James Edwards]

The original is still the best (which ive seen).  Sometimes, the original can't be matched which is for the betterment of the game Chris.  Maybe the name 'Eden' should start and finish at TOC.  Nice thought!

I would agree that the 4th at NGLA is a better Redan though!

[Tom_Doak]

The 18th at Garden City is a solid but very distant second.

The Eden has not been approached, in part because no one has tried it on a links site.  It is essential for the green to be very firm, so you can't just fire over the Strath at the hole, and for the approach to be firm also so you have to land short of the bunkers and avoid curving off into one of them.  Also, no one has had the guts to design a green with that much tilt to it.

We gave it the old college try with the tenth hole at The Rawls Course.  I haven't played it enough to know whether we were successful; but, since I've heard few comments about that hole, we must not have done the Eden justice.  (Or maybe we did, and people are just too mad about it to comment.)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think it is. Much more difficult green with brilliant contours that stop your breath. Personally, I don't think there is any comparison. If you look at this and observe the conour lines, you can see just how elevated a green it really is. Then check out the drop-off in the back!

[ForkaB]

To "recreate" the essence of the Eden you would have to recreate the landform and the routing.  Neither is really possible and/or feasible.  The fact that CBM failed miserably at NGLA to do so (whilst vastly improving on "The" Redan") speaks volumes, at least to me.

[Neil Regan]

Tommy,
  Can you please tell us more about that topo ? Who made it, and when, and is the whole course available ?
 
Neil

[Mike_Sweeney]

We gave it the old college try with the tenth hole at The Rawls Course.  I haven't played it enough to know whether we were successful; but, since I've heard few comments about that hole, we must not have done the Eden justice.  (Or maybe we did, and people are just too mad about it to comment.)

Tom,

I can't comment on the original, but I really liked the Eden hole at Beechtree. Even my non-architectural loving partner commented on how it set up visually from the tee. It was August, so it was pretty firm too.

The Eden at National (13) seems to be a loose interpretation of the original, and the Eden at Yale ....ah we know the story.

[BCrosby]

Tommy nails it.

Until you've played TOC, you don't appreciate the elevation of the 11th green. Until you walk down into the deep swale in front of it, then climb up the steep false front and, in passing (hopefully), note the extraordinary depth of Strath, it's hard to appreciate how great a hole it is. I was amazed. Tectonic contour changes. You gotta see it to believe it.

The 15th at Crabapple in ATL is an interesing modern variation. Nominally designed by Fazio, I'd guess that David Eger had a big hand (and that may be understating his involvement) in the final product. It gets the elevation thing right and stretches the hole to 200 yards.

Bob

 

[TEPaul]

My feeling is NGLA's redan and Piping Rock's redan (sometimes considered to be the 2nd best Macdonald redan) are enough different from North Berwick's redan as to not really be worth comparing. The principle of North Berwick's is essentially the same as it's two American cousins but that's about all.

I've never seen TOC's Eden and perhaps it is the best there is but for someone to say NGLA's Eden "failed miserably" is ridiculous to me. I've played NGLA's #13 enough and in tournaments too to know there's definitely no miserable failure to that hole--unless someone thinks something less than an EXACT copy of TOC's Eden is a miserable failure. But I sure don't look at it that way.

It's probably time to say it again, and I know George Bahto will back this up, but contrary to common opinion Macdonald was never really attempting to EXACTLY copy the European holes he used as prototypes! And frankly, the fact that he wasn't trying to exactly copy them is most of the interest and beauty of the American cousins of those European prototypes!

[SPDB]

Like TEPaul, I've never seen the Eden, but have studied it and have never really understood how CBM and SR's are related to it. The bunkering and greenshapes lend themselves to a very poor comparison. The strategy, of course, I can't really speak to having never seen the original.

That being said, the finest Eden I've seen is at Fishers Island. The inlet at least gives the effect of the Estuary. Second would have to be #5 at Camargo. A fine hole regardless of its namesake.

[THuckaby2]

Anyone interested in the use of classic golf hole types as standards for other designs simply MUST read a wonderful book on the subject, "Classic Golf Hole Design" by Cornish and Graves.  

In this book they cover the Eden in great detail... and give many examples of worthwhile replicas/adaptations... while never stating that any surpass the original, at TOC.  I too think Tommy is right as to why this is so - it would be very difficult to recreate the contour, and even if you could, it would be impossible to surpass the sense of "place" that The Eden holds.

In any case, each of the following are listed as worthy replicas/adaptations:

#3 Tamarack CC
#17 Oneck Course (NLE) of Westhampton CC
#16 The Links Club (NLE)
#11 Shinnecock Hills (NLE - how it used to be)
#2 Maidstone (NLE - how it once was))
#18 Garden City
#5 Meadow Club (Devrie's restorarion is wonderful)
#4 Augusta (NLE - how it once was)
#5 Saucon Valley (they seem to like this one the best)

Others listed in the Epilogue include:

Augusta #5 - it's a par 4 but they consider it an Eden greensite
Fisher's Island #11
Lido #3 (NLE)
Makena GC #15
NGLA #13
Rye #14
Sunningdale Old #13


TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I don't think Rich meant failure in any terms, but the element of heart-pumping excitment from the tee is far different. The Old Course Eden just doesn't have any peers in this regard. Not at least what I have seen so far.

Think of being on the tee at #5 at Pine Valley and your not at the top of you game that day. That feeling that sets in. Thats what happens on the Eden, and it isn't the only hole that does it to you on the Old Course. The places confuses you. It actually sets out to confuse you.

I think #13 at the National is a wonderful golf hole, but other then some bunkering, the greens are far different in regards to their depth. CB was right though, (regards to protecting from the skull) my very first shot and subsequent others was a unintentional skull that climbed its way up through the depression and up the steep slope on to the green, which became even more of a freak show once it got up there! The ball literally looked like it was dancing all over the place running around all of those contours on the green!

Neal, I have three different types of topos of the Old Course--complete. I'll tell to you later about them.

Thats a good list there Tom, and that book is one that I don't have.



 

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

Fisher's Eden certainly does have the proper backdrop behind it with the estuary but that's purely visual--not playable. Maybe I'm not remembering the playability of Fisher's Eden that well but from my recollections the times I've played it (also only in tournaments) it just didn't have the intensity, spunk and pizzazz that NGLA's does. But maybe that has something to do with the fact the last time at NGLA "Singles" qualifying I got to #13 even par, got into the Strath bunker and it took me four shots to get out of it!  

Also putting from anywhere to the side or behind most any pin on NGLA's Eden (at tournament speeds) is downright hair-raising! It takes a good deal of imagination and concentration to do successfully. More than most any putts I can think of, some of the putts I've had on #13 are the ones I most wished I could immediately try again!  

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

The book was recommended in here way back by Tim Weiman.  I find it to be a great reference... you as a forensic architect may disagree with a lot of what they say though!  Still, it is a damn fine book to have.  

And you're right also - what sets apart THE EDEN from all others is the sense of FEAR.  I mean, you stand on that tee and all you can see are horrors of bad misses... that is, can't go left, can't go right, can't go LONG that's for sure.. and god help me I don't want to play from the Strath!!!!  It is palpable excitement without a doubt, and it's all created by the contours.  Then the fun only begins on the green....

OK, I have to put in a shameless plug here - it's one of my favorite par three holes on the planet and I birdied it the last time I played it, last July.  Left one just off the green short and right, just as the caddies advised the day before, made a long snaking putt up the bank, curling over, kerplunk.  Quite a thrill.  

Interesting to me, G&C list Shinnecock #11 as once being an Eden... and it's certainly not today... but damn that same sense of palpable excitement exists on that hole most definitely... and again, all because of the incredible rise and drop.

Just to show I'm not cocky also, I'll add that my one time playing THAT hole yielded an historic 8.  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You know, looking at Shell bunker, I wonder if Tillie had this in mind at WFW #10?

I'm not saying that #10 is an Eden, but the placement of the two bunkers is interesting. (one is left side while the other is right, but they look to provide the same element of hazard)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well, it goes on the list then of books I have to get. HH's Golf & Greenkeeping is the next though!


Thanks!

Tom, Please help me lose that tag too! The only thing forensic about me would be looking at one of those shows on HBO.

[THuckaby2]

Tom, Please help me lose that tag too! The only thing forensic about me would be looking at one of those shows on HBO.

OK, sorry about that, Tommy.  It's just so fun... you are a man of many titles and each new one surpasses the last!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, Tommy and Rich said it and I say it again, "It is the best Eden in the world". I love the hole and find it is high amoung my favorite holes on earth. I think about it more than any other at TOC. I start getting excited as you glance at it playing 7. The walk undeneath it looking at OMG those traps and the elevation change. Then looking at the pin placement while on the green. 8, 9 and 10  do not appraoch the emotion and excitement that 11 does setting up the great stretch of holes ahead. What a great golf hole.

[ForkaB]

JB

That was what I was trying to say re: the routing.  Getting to walk right across the 11th fairway when you are playing 7 is one of the cool things about its charm.

TEP

Don't get so defensive when somebody says something not completely adulatory about NGLA.  Christ, you're beginning to sound like Mucci!

As Tommy said, I was just saying that CBM's "Eden" was in no way reminiscent of "The" Eden.  It's a fine golf hole, but that's all.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Don't get so defensive when somebody says something not completely adulatory about NGLA.  Christ, you're beginning to sound like Mucci!"

Rich:

I'm not getting in the slightest bit defensive about NGLA--I'm simply pointing out that when someone (yourself) points out that NGLA's Eden hole is 'miserable failure' compared to TOC's Eden hole they don't know what the F... they're talking about! Nothing remotely defensive about that---just a simple and cordial statement of fact!

[Mike Hendren]

I second those who say THE Eden has no peers.  I do not recall a long-iron shot (played into a very stiff breeze on my two rounds there) anywhere else that requires such precise yardage, particularly when to vulnerably exposed to the elements  I had never understood the strategy or acclaim of this hole until I walked toward the 7th green my first Sunday there.  The slope of the green is unbelievable.  Having been long, I refuse to believe Payne Stewart actually got up and down from there as has purportedly been reported unless he holed his pitch from the fairway for par!  

Assuredly, the better player would want to make hay on 8-10 just to have a stroke in reserve go give back at 11.  Of all the holes I failed to par, this one hurt the most.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Having been long, I refuse to believe Payne Stewart actually got up and down from there as has purportedly been reported unless he holed his pitch from the fairway for par!  

Don't hate me because I have incredible things happen sometimes... but... not only did I make a deuce on THE EDEN last summer, but in a previous playing, I got up and down from behind the green, on the grass just short of the beach-sand.  Caddie felt very bad for misclubbing me (talked me into hitting one more club than I wanted, voila, over it went) so he painstakingly instructed me to slam a 4iron into the hill... sure enough, it worked just as he said it would... ball popped straight up, and from what the tell me it hit a few feet on the green, trickled down to the hole, stopped on the lip.  I only got to see the end result, as you can imagine.

Sorry, my friend.

 

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Tell me you, and Stewart for that matter, were pitching back into the wind!   I could not have hit a better pitch, only to wind up thirty yards short of the green in the fairway.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

There was a bit of wind, not much, and yes, it was with me on the tee shot, so against on the 4-iron slam into hill back.

I have never seen a caddie so pleased as when that shot worked... nor a golfer.  

[Bill_McBride]

Since I've never been to St Andrews and will rectify that in May, here's a question about the Eden for the cognoscenti:

Tom H says you can't go long, left, right or into the Strath bunker short.  Isn't it possible to play to the right down onto the 7th green side and putt back up hill to the 11th cup?  Just wondering...........

That hole as described does sound somewhat daunting!  

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