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PJKoenig

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2004, 09:39:10 PM »
"Can someone please remind me why this DG isn't as good as it use to be!!!"  -- hpembroke

Just stop responding to the contrarian.  Simple as that.

JakaB

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2004, 10:03:25 PM »
PJ,

Have you read The Book....Do you think it is worthy of discussion on this site or should it just be accepted as gospel.  I think The Book has some weaknesses and would like to participate in a civil discussion about the true future of golf...

note: If you think calling Forston an idiot is name calling...you have not seen his opinions on Pebble Beach.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2004, 10:15:58 PM »
JakaB said...

"Do you really believe that if I gave him my old persimon and blades...teed up a blue max on an antiquated short tee...he would have as much success..leading to as much fun...leading to more revenue for the club...I don't."

I do.

Success is relative to the limits and rules set forth by the sport.  Didn't you learn to play the sport with that persimmon driver, blades, and blue max ball that was teed up on a short tee?  Didn't you fall in love with it without your titanium head driver?  I know I did.

I think your friend would do jsut fine if the rules were like they were 10+ years ago.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2004, 10:33:54 PM »
Jeff,

The learning curve of an eight year old kid is much, much different than a fifty year old man.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 10:38:19 PM by JakaB »

ChasLawler

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2004, 11:01:11 PM »
Quote
Sure maybe the first million or two players that golf loses wouldn't hurt the game on a grand level, but if it continues you'll have graveyards and condos where your golf courses are.
.

Survival of the fittest – we survived 10, 20, 30 years ago with fewer courses, why can’t we do it now?

With golfers leaving the game in masses, equipment prices and greens fees will drop as competition gets stiffer.

Wishful thinking? Maybe. But any more wishful than what you are looking for?

The way the game is played has evolved, and sadly there’s not really anything we can do about it. Realistically at best – the technology race (at least distance wise) stops tomorrow. It will not be turned back. I’d vote to cap it right where it is.

Whichever way we go, someone is going to lose his or her job and some place is going to go out of business.

Jeff – I don’t know the situation with junior golf as well as you do, but my thought is that the development of junior golf is not proportionate to the development of new golf courses. Therefore I can’t really see how losing a bunch of golf courses is going to affect junior golf. If as you say the state of junior golf is so bad now, even after the golf course construction boom over the last 5 years, how could it be any worse if a few of those places went belly up? I want kids to be able to play just as much as the next guy, but is it that important to me that every kid in America pick up golf – not really.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2004, 11:01:25 PM »
The future of golf?  Since the USGA and the manufacturers can't figure it out, the ball will be dialed back by either specific tours or venues (Augusta??)  The technoolgy out now is great for most golfers.  In the hands of the top 500-1000 players in the world, it's become laughable.  7600-7800 yard courses??  How many players out there can't handle a course at 6500 yards?  For the professionals, it's either the courses keep stretching or the ball comes back (or stays where it is now).  Courses are running out of room now anyway.

Too many of the new golf courses NGF told everyone to build as quick as possible are too hard.  If we want to get and keep people, provide places to play where it takes under four hours and allows them to put up a good score if they earned it.  I've never understood the 15 handicap player bragging about shooting 125 from the "tips" because he "wanted to experience the course the way the architect designed it."  I'm sure the foursome behind him appreciated the five hours it probably took to do it.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2004, 11:12:58 PM »
Rannulph,

I wouldn't mind if a few courses were lost.  No problem.  I have a problem with losing the sport in absolute terms.  

Let me ask you this.....

Where DO you draw the line on technology?  Do we let it escalate until par 4's are 600 yards long?  

I don't think we're too far off in opinion.  I think I may want a rollback where you just want to halt it where it is.  Either way, you obviously recognize that there is a problem.  

If something serious is not done then we will see the game to continue to spiral out of control.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2004, 11:23:42 PM »
Jeff,

What if we all just admit there is not a problem an quit trying to fix what is not there by lengthening courses...would that work.   I personally just can't stomach the Chicken Little mentality of the critics of golf...The sky is falling..The sky is falling...and the only thing falling are the scores of the top 1000 golfers in the world....Thank God at least the USGA has been asleep...but that comes later in The Book....and not as a good thing.

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2004, 11:24:20 PM »
I just read the last couple of posts and actually had a warm feeling.

NOW, WE'RE TALKING!!!   ;D

Keep it up, gentlemen.  

ChasLawler

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2004, 11:25:10 PM »
Jeff,
I draw the line on technology right here. As you said, I just want to halt it where it is - there is a problem. In a perfect world, it might be nice to roll the ball back about 5 or 6 years, but I just don't see that happening, so I can't find the logic in proposing/supporting it.

...and I just can't see "losing the sport in absolute terms". It's too big for that.



Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2004, 12:05:23 AM »
Jeff,
I don't know why the SCPGA absorbed the Desert Junior program but they do list 178 junior events for 2004.
   
You say;
Quote
Just because Google says there are a bunch of junior golf associations doesn't necessarily prove that junior golf is healthier today then it was 10 years ago.
Hell with google, lets go to the PGA web site and see what they have to offer. Let's see, there are 1,863 programs listed at www.juniorlinks.com, a site sponsored by the PGA, LPGA, PGA TOUR, USGA, NGCOA, WGF and the GCSAA, and this is only a count of registered programs.

Your suppositions are not supported by the facts. It ain't a row of ducks unless they are all lined up.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 01:11:32 AM by jim_kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

PJKoenig

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2004, 01:24:34 AM »
Jeff Fortson:

Why do you waste your time?  If you reverse your position 100%, so will JakaB.  He's a one-trick pony, simply out to annoy.  Ignore the contrarian.  He'll thrash around a while but eventually he'll go away.

ForkaB

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2004, 04:31:56 AM »
In his own inimitable way, JakaB has forced us (or at least most of us) to think.

I'm very intrigued by the argument as to whether or not "we" should want to "grow" the game of golf, or not, and to what degree our attitude on this issue affects the issue on which this website is based, architecture.

My personal take on this (which, as always, is subject to change, based on what I learn from others) is that I am all for growing the game of golf IF, we define the "game as being:

1.  An athletic activity, one of whose central elements is walking and one of whose most important "skills" is stamina
2.  An inclusive game in which the divide between the private venues and the public ones is far more porous.
3.  A game which embraces children rather than just tolerating them
4.  A game which is environmentally sound and pro-active
5.  A game which designs its rules, particularly in terms of balls and implements, to the needs of the vast majority of players, rather than just the elite.
6.  A game which does not live in mortal fear of "bifurcation."
7.  A game which understands that there already is, and always has been, bifurcation, and trifurcation, etc. etc.
8.  A game which accepts diversity--in terms of abilities, genders, ages, incomes, and--most importantly--course and hole designs.
9.  A game which is treated more as a game, and less as a social cachet.
10. A game in which "handicaps" are just measures of relative skill rather than licenses to steal or stroke one's vanity.
11. A game which is affordable, for those who just wnat to play golf and don't care about the frills.
12. A game which retains its incredible ability to foster camaraderie and friendship.

Follow these principles, and I think that a lot of what we despair about regarding our game will be ameliorated.  It may or may not lead to the "growth" of the game, but that depends on what one means by "growth."

Is it just numbers?  More clubs sold, longer courses, higher-tech balls, more rounds of golf "played, etc.?  Or is it quality?  Better more varied courses and more money spent on lessons and actual golfing and less on equipment, subsidized silver service dinners and cart boys and cart girls who know your name but not your soul?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2004, 05:51:21 AM »
I suppose in many ways it boils down to how you define a better or worse game.

Geoff seems to focus on the growth of golf and the destruction of classic courses. If those are your primary criteria, it seems hard to conclude the game of golf is in good shape and has a rosy future ahead.

JakaB, on the other hand, seems to be focussing on ease of play and his own microclimate of courses. Maybe under those standards the game is doing pretty well.

For what it's worth, I took up the game 7 years ago (29 at the time). My first season's clubs were 20 year old hand me downs and I enjoyed playing with them quite a bit. Since then I've played largely with a cheap starter set I received as a Christmas present, so I guess I've always been behind the curve when it comes to purchasing technology (maybe I'm probably not the best judge, then, don't really know).

It seems to me that if you're simply looking to hit the ball farther with less practice and effort, these are indeed better times. That doesn't really equate to more fun to me. For me personally, if I were to list the ten most satisfying shots I've hit in my brief career, none of them would be 300 yard drives (and I've hit more than a couple). Of course, for Shivas, all 10 of them would be 300+ yard drives, so he proably feels like the game's doing great today, too. :) My most enjoyable rounds were also not driver-wedge rounds, either. I think that gets old, no matter how you slice it.

Playing long slog courses that I'd say are primarily the result of the desire for a "championship course" are also not tons of fun for the average golfer, IMO, especially with the concurrent championship prices.

To me, what would be best for the average golfer would be the ready availability of courses like Rustic Canyon, The Rawls Course, etc. Relatively inexpensive, interesting public layouts. The current environment of golf does not seem to be enocouraging or emphasizing this model, however. I think that's a big part of what Geoff is saying is wrong. He believes (and I agree, for the most part) that where we are now and where we are headed are largely the result of technology gone wild and the poor examples set at the highest levels of golf.

I'm kind of torn, because I'm not really someone who believes intervention fixes everything in life, sometimes you gotta just have faith the market will work things out. I think if more people built courses like RC & TRC, they'd enjoy financial success. The question is, would they have strong enough egos to laugh when "the lists" come out and their courses have been passed over by the cogniscenti in favor of the glitzy expensive long slogs with spectacular views? Probably not, but that's really more an indication of personal low self esteem than anything wrong with the game.

It's not hard for me to understand why JakaB is so happy with the state of today's game. If I played half as much as him, at a course half as nice as VN, I'd probably be a damn sight more optomistic, too. :)

I give Geoff a ton of credit for sticking his neck out there. He was intimately involved in building a course that is apparently very well received and very successful. He's held in high regard for his other books - for damn good reason, they are outstanding and inspiring. It'd be damn easy for him to stick his head in the ground rather than on the chopping block, but instead, I think he's looking out for guys like me, in terms of encouraging affordable, thought provoking and, most of all, FUN golf, and the members of many special places, where ill advised alterations continue to be performed.

I wonder what your opinion would be, JakaB, if you didn't have the resources for your playing situation, or if the Green Committee at VN chose to bring in someone in 5-10 years to start f-ing with the golf course and sending you the bill.

P.S. Nice post, Rich.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2004, 08:22:38 AM »
Rich:  I agree with all of your sentiments, but the toughest one to fix in the USA is at number two ... you've got to change local tax laws for that, and I don't think there are many governments right now with a mind to give private clubs any better deal.

My phone is still ringing about new jobs, but the demographics of clients have changed considerably in the last two years.  I haven't had a single call about a daily fee golf course for quite some time.  It could be that people think I'm too expensive for that now, but I think it has more to do with the struggle of all those high-end courses everyone built five years ago.  The same type of developer who was doing those is now going the private club route, to try and get his money out faster.  But if that doesn't work, either, then in another five years I don't think there are going to be that many people building golf courses.

George:  appreciate your kind comments on The Rawls Course, but the numbers there only work because Jerry Rawls donated $8 million to have the course built.  Otherwise it certainly wouldn't be a $35 round of golf.  There are places where it can be done, but it requires a year-round golf season and relatively inexpensive land.

P.S.  I heard the other day that The Rawls Course did 27,000 rounds last year.  Not bad for a course that opened on September 1!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2004, 08:26:15 AM »

P.S.  I heard the other day that The Rawls Course did 27,000 rounds last year.  Not bad for a course that opened on September 1!

Tom,

According to some, that statement is a matter of perspective!

Congrats,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

ChasLawler

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2004, 08:50:03 AM »
Great post Rich, and I have to agree with just about all of your points. A couple of issues however:

As to your second point - I just don't see the line between private and public becoming any more porous...at least not in the states. I assume you'd be in favor a system more in line with what you have across the pond. My issue is I think that system would get abused here in the states, even if some of the privates would open their doors a crack.

And to your 5th point - I think the rules, particularly in terms of balls and implements are already well suited for the vast majority of golfers. Maybe the proV1 doesn't fly as far for the average golfer, but all in all I'd say the vast majority of golfers are very happy with where technology stands. But even with 400cc drivers, cavity backed irons, 60-degree wedges and 2-ball putters, the game still ain't easy. Golf courses are getting longer because the technology for the elite players is (for lack of a better term) too good. I'm not sure I'm sold on bifurcation, but take the elite player out of the equation, and technology-wise, I don't think we're in that bad of a place.

In my opinion all the values you set forth are legitimate and valid, but I just don't see the game holding onto those values while it grows at the rate it has over the last decade, or the rate in which it appears the USGA wants it to grow. As alluded to above, just because there are more people playing the game now than 10 or 20 years ago doesn't necessarily mean the state of the game is any better. Perhaps the state of the golf business may seem better, but the values you set forth above become harder to attain. Losing 5 million golfers may no be such a bad thing. Perhaps it will bring back a sense of intimacy to the game it hasn’t seen in quite some time.



munson

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2004, 08:58:56 AM »
The problem with losing so many golfers is the ones you lose. I am not comfortable with the sport being for the wealthy and the talented instead of your neighbors (of course if you are wealthy your neighbors probably are as well). I am sure I am in good company here with my blue-collar, muni-course background. You really had to want to play and love the game to overcome the lines, the crappy greens and caddying just to be able to see the better clubs. IMHO, that's who we want to see out there.

Ban the long putter.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2004, 09:20:51 AM »
Rich Goodale:

It was a delight to read your vision of the "game". I'm having trouble finding any points where I disagree.

KFry:

Along with Rich Goodale, you've touched on one of the key points. For 95-99% of the world's golfers, technology is not a problem. Even with the latest and greatest balls and clubs, most golfers still can't handle more than 6,200-6,500 yards.

The problem comes when allowing a small elite group of players to use it. That's what encourages the waste of money modifying golf courses.

We should accept Rich's point: bifurication already exists. We just need to formally recognize it. Tournament golf should emphasize player skill. 1980's era golf balls and 44 inch steel shaft persimmon drivers would do that far better than the equipment tournament golfers are using today.

Tim
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 09:21:43 AM by Tim_Weiman »
Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2004, 09:29:46 AM »
Wow.
I am dumbfounded.
Who ghost-wrote that for Rich Goodale?  It makes FAR too much sense and is far too righteous and hopeful to be written by the usually-witty, sometime-surly, sometime-contrarian I know.

Rich, to set my mind at ease, can we once again hear your view about how Cypress Point isn't that big of a deal of a golf course, and would be better if it were routed in reverse?  that #16 is no big deal, just a driver to the right side, ho hum?  My faith in verities is mortally shaken this morning.   ;D

Sorry to be a smartass - Rich and I go way back and my smartass jibe just plain needed to be said.  ;D

But man as I read his manifesto, that is the game I want to see as well, every single point.  The good news to me is that a lot of it is happening already... there does remain room for optomism.  Junah makes good points also in that some may or may not come to fruition, but we can hope....

TH

ForkaB

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2004, 11:19:31 AM »
George, Tom, Rannulph, Tim and Tom

Thanks for the kind words.

As for my point #2 (greater "porosity" between public and private) I understand the tax issue, but I think it could be mitigated through local legislation.  The US has roughly the smae legal system as the UK and the UK seems to have found a way to preserve privacy whilst allowing limited access to virtually all golf courses.

I also think, howver, that there is a cultural issue at play here.  For whatever reason, the Brits and the Irish seem to be more comfortable sharing their privileges with the plebians than do we Americans.  I would guess that even if there were no tax issues, many private clubs in the US would prefer to remain completely private and not allow the hoi polloi like myself to just walk up and get a game, regardless of how fine and upstanding a person I might be.  Tis a pity, but I think it to be true.  As long as this attitude exists, the developemnt of the game of golf in he US will be arrested.  It may grow in numbers, but it will not grow in its essence.

As for point #5 (equipment), I was one of the early proponents on this site of the competition ball and of other "roll backs" of technology.  I still think it would be a good idea to regulate balls and equipment for the pros and other elite players, but I am less convinced that it is that important to do so for the rest of us (i.e. +3 handicap and above).  With the possible exception of the safety issue, I think that the game can get along just fine thank you with the melon-headed drivers and "go far" balls.  Most of their effects, anyway, as well all know, are in our heads and not demonstrable on the course with any regularity.

Rich

PS--Tom H, I'll get to reversing Cypress and other more trivial ideas when points 1-12 start showing some signs of progress.

THuckaby2

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2004, 11:23:43 AM »
PS--Tom H, I'll get to reversing Cypress and other more trivial ideas when points 1-12 start showing some signs of progress.

That was one hell of a great touche.  Well done.  ;D

TH

Brian_Gracely

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2004, 11:39:53 AM »
2.  An inclusive game in which the divide between the private venues and the public ones is far more porous.

Excellent point Rich.

In Edgeworth's "Great Golf Clubs of Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales", a number of the clubs state that, "they are keepers of a course which is capable of hosting the Open Championship and as such must allow the outside world access to witness its greatness."

Considering that C.B. MacDonald had spent time at some of the great clubs in Scotland, especially St.Andrews where he apparently learned about "The Spirit of the Game" and saw R&A members playing the same course as the local, I wonder at what point it was decided that the outside world should not be allowed to witness the greatness of America's finest courses?  I understand all the egos involved, but it's interesting to see the difference between the mindsets of UK clubs (keepers of great golfing land) and US clubs (owners of private clubs).  

ChasLawler

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2004, 12:05:50 PM »
Tell me - if the private clubs of the US were to open their doors to the masses, just how much would you expect them to charge?

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2004, 12:07:59 PM »
"Among aristocratic nations the different classes are like vast enclosures, out of which it is impossible to get, into which it is impossible to enter. These classes have no communication with each other, but within them men necessarily live in daily contact; even though they would not naturally suit, the general conformity of a similar condition brings them near together. But when neither law nor custom professes to establish frequent and habitual relations between certain men, their intercourse originates in the accidental similarity of opinions and tastes; hence private society is infinitely varied. In democracies, where the members of the community never differ much from each other and naturally stand so near that they may all at any time be fused in one general mass, numerous artificial and arbitrary distinctions spring up by means of which every man hopes to keep himself aloof lest he should be carried away against his will in the crowd."

The answer can always be found in Democracy in America.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

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