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JakaB

Pony up people....lets talk about issues brought forward by the book The Future of Golf in America and how they relate to the American Golfer....not us, not people who belong to the top 200 clubs in the country, the real people who watch the game and play the real courses of this country.  Is the ball really out of control...is the cost of golf really out of hand...is there really a lack of interesting architecture in the abandonded farm fields so many of us and our friends play.   What percentage of people is golf failing and for who are we wanting to change the game...If we are going to change golf for the better we need something to push at the grass roots level....what problems can regular people tell their friends need to be corrected that are not just party chat for the wine set.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 04:23:00 PM by JakaB »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2004, 11:29:37 AM »
JakaB,

How can Victoria National not be in the Top 200?!?!?!


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2004, 12:01:33 PM »
Part II---Technology: Failing to Make Golf More Fun, More Affordable or More Interesting

Part I of the book was basically an introduction..this is the heading for part II...do you buy it.  While sitting at a semi-private Bedelow layout yesterday afternoon...I got a bunch of laughs when I asked if Technology hurt anyones game today or made it less fun....we all need the length and we buy our clubs used of off ebay...were is the problem with that..

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2004, 12:31:11 PM »
Part III---Major Identity Crisis: How Professional Golf Has Set a Dreadful Example in its Reaction to Deregulation.

Quoting from The Book.."Also discussed in this section is the death of the bunker in professional golf, the PGA Tour's failure to take advantage of the TPC concept as a way to generate exciting golf and the possibility that the Tour might create its own set of rules to restore shotmaking."  Three points I don't buy...how about you..

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2004, 12:36:18 PM »
Jacque Ah -
Why do you need length?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2004, 12:38:42 PM »
JakaB,
Frank Thomas says that the average guy didn't benefit nearly as much as the Pro or the fast swingers. Seeing as how 95% of players are average, the concern is for a very small segment. If a club is willing to spend jillions to keep a few of its members happy they're nuts.

There are over 5,000 courses in the US that charge less than $25 to play. They are found across the map, maybe not as many in certain areas, but they do exist everywhere.

When the new glitzy course comes to a neighborhood near you it always looks greener and it may very well be. After you and your buddies play it and find that you aren't having 3, 4 or 5 times the fun but are paying 3, 4, or five times the freight your old stomping grounds start to look good again.

Golf failed to retain players from the Tiger spike and it didn't go hunting new segments when it was fat. Women and juniors represent a 42% potential gain in player numbers and they are being actively pursued now that golf is feeling some pressure. I think a great deal of the pressure comes from more areas than are normally topics of discussion. Sagging numbers can be attributed to a sagging economy, one which has seen  unemployment rise from 3.8% in April, 2000 to 5.8% in March, 2003. Corporations have also cut back on golf expenditures. Since the early '90s there has been tremendous growth in golf communities which in turn has siphoned off a large number of players from the market. I recently read a report that said 70 to 90% of all recent new construction was real estate driven. The weather has been terrible in many sections of the country for the past three years. 2003 saw an average of 25 more days of inclement weather than was seen in 2002. 9/11 has seen many folks adjusting their priorities.
Blame anything else you want, you can't discount these factors. As bad as it may seem the total golf economy accounts for 0.6%, (= 62.17 billion dollars), of the GDP in this country.

On a grass roots level: When a new player comes to our course, or just a new face, we try to pair them up with someone who knows the course and is an amiable companion. We tell them about a few of the quirks on our course and are  genuinely concerned with the experiences they had and ask their opinions when they come in. Basically we try to make them feel at home.

If everybody who presently plays the game brought one new player to it this season golf would be fine, from the business  
side.


 

 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 12:42:18 PM by jim_kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2004, 12:41:20 PM »
I need length so if I ever get to play the greatest short par four in the country...Riviera 10th...I have more than one option....New technology has opened a world of options for golfers like me and my friends that I would not have had with old equipment...makes it more fun.   The course I had my discussion at this weekend is a 6000 yd layout...the par fives still need two good shots for single handicaps to reach...one of the par 3's is still a fairway wood....and one the rare occasion I can drive one of the short par 4's..it pumps me up...my question is...what's wrong with that..

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2004, 12:45:42 PM »
It would seem to me then that your choice of tees could resolve your problems (and save you some money). Assuming you don't opt for this route, then the relief offered by technology is illusory since, in all likelihood, the greatest short par 4s will be altered in length to make them current with technology.

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2004, 12:56:08 PM »
Jim,

I currently have a friend that we want to take up golf because we like spending time with him...I think he will mainly because I have a set of clubs that I consider obsolete that he can have...helper irons and a big ole headed driver...he is of moderate coordination and we are talking about a 6000 yd course with no trouble and unlimited play including carts for $475/year.   Do you really believe that if I gave him my old persimon and blades...teed up a blue max on an antiquated short tee...he would have as much success..leading to as much fun...leading to more revenue for the club...I don't.   Oh, yeah...in the old days did guys like me have a stash of great clubs they could give to friends and juniors...the used club market in a town with a depressed ecomomy actually has made golfing with decent clubs a cheaper proposition than years ago....who cares if good guys get cheap clubs from suckers like me...its good for the game and good for the guy who sells me that new driver every 8 months.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2004, 12:57:14 PM »
I'm wondering what is the length of the women's......or should I say shortest tee......on #10 at Riviera?

Perhaps this tee would work fine to provide options for JakaB.

Tim
Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2004, 01:33:56 PM »
JakaB, just for clarity, can you post your Bendelow course card with distances from back and middle tees, slope and course ratings too?  I imagine on an old Bende course there isn't a heck of a lot of yardage difference from back and middle tees.  At 6000yds, I can't imagine you have any par 5s of more than 500 and probably more like 460-485.  How many par 4s of 390-420?  If you have one par 3 of 185-210 (you say you need a fairway metal) then what are the rest?  My point being, that you probably have a course where you rarely hit anything more than 8-9Iron into any par 4s.  I've seen your tee ball, and you ain't exactly average.  I'm guessing that with an old top flite Pinnacle or Slaezinger (whatever) and a pre 1998 driver, you still don't have much trouble hitting it 240.  With your souped up new ball, and a 460+cc or what ever your using, you can't tell me you don't have at least 15-20 more yards.  Either you choose not to use the driver except on par 5s you want to be on or pin high in 2, or you must hit a lot of wedge-9Is to all grees.  That seems boooring and probably not what Bende felt ought to be the variety of club selections and shots.  

You keep bringing up the Bendelow course you are a member of for $500 a year and all the issues about technology relative to it.  I am only assuming that the Bende course is where you and some old farts play your off season, early spring, late fall golf because the big lot course is closed.  (I may be way off there)  Would you still enjoy your golf if you didn't have your option for a big lot course at peak season and only had the Bende course all year, playing it with your technology?

But, what about VN, aren't you a member there too?  What is the freight there?  Why is it so much more?  Do you switch to the real test of golf in peak season because it isn't boring like the small lot Bende course?  Why is it 6700-7100 yards are needed for a proper test of golf for low-mid handicappers?  Why was a modern course needing more yardage?  How much land does the Bende course use VS VN?  How does all these issues play into affordability?  Certainly not affordability through technology.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2004, 01:40:12 PM »
Neither do I Jaka.
I didn't say the new clubs didn't have benefits that make it easier for today's players. Your friend will more than likely hit the ball a bit farther and find it much easier to get palatable results from modern equipment. Still, playability, not distance is the main feature of cavity back irons and huge headed drivers, at least for the vast majority of players who use them.
I am always hoping that I hear a customer say he is going to  give his old clubs to someone and occasionally I've offered to re-grip them free if the lucky recipient brings them in. I don't need the trade-ins filling up my shop.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 02:57:00 PM by jim_kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2004, 02:10:31 PM »
RJ,

A quick note before I do your research...If I was the average golfer...golf would not be in trouble.  I spend more on golf than I do my house....

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2004, 02:39:20 PM »
JakaB,

The reference you made to #10 and how you and 95% of the golfing world have more options because it allows you to go for the green is possibly true.  However, the scenario you describe is much more rare than the adverse effects of what this new technology is doing to golf courses.  Width is in decline on new and old golf courses to combat this new length which takes options away.  

Also, other than the great short holes of the world most holes have become much longer with par 4's nearing 500 yards and par 5's becoming more and more impossible for you, and the 95% of the golfing population you are representing, to ever have a chance reaching in two.

I'd say the benefit of you being able to maybe reach #10 at Riviera is not a good trade off for the exponential negative effects that technology has had on the rest of your golfing experience.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2004, 03:04:23 PM »
RJ,

The Bende course is closed so I can not get a card but here goes...310, 515, 165, 340, 530, 305, 212, 390, 310...this is over 3000 yds but we have 18 tees and nine greens with the average set up for 18 holes coming in near 6000 yds.  In 1976 when I weighed 100lbs less and could run sub 50 quarters I could have eagle putts on 1,2,4,5, not 6 because it is a dogleg with trees and a ditch, and 9...I'm a fat man now who still enjoys the game with a little help...get over it.  Fuzzy Zeoller and Bob Goalby have both won our county tournament...Two Masters winners...not bad for a goat ranch...it is a masterful design that does not grow boring because of the very swashbuckling nature you guys so miss at another course those two guys have had some good days.

Now to VN...of the last 108 weeks I have played there 105 of them...I have missed 3 weeks due to a combination of travel, snow and illness.  As to the freight...I am clinically obese...I have bigger problems to worry about than saving for a future I doubt I will ever see...a very large portion of the freight at VN has gone to the excellent drainage system....I am not a monoclimatic one time visitor that can't tell the difference between two weeks of rain and an overzealous super...What does the freight of a course that has less than 200 members have to do with the average golfer.  Golf would be no worse off if VN was never built...to take one course and compare it to the mission of The Book does The Book a diservice.

note:  I am the only person who is a member of both courses...I live 71 miles from VN...I live 1 mile from the Bende course....asap..Lawrence County Country Club.    

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2004, 03:32:16 PM »

I'd say the benefit of you being able to maybe reach #10 at Riviera is not a good trade off for the exponential negative effects that technology has had on the rest of your golfing experience.


Jeff,

I remember when I was your age and had just had my first child...I would have been 25...1985...My last round at Mt. Carmel Municipal Golf Couse...shot 67 and cleaned the big boys clocks right before I moved to Chicago where my game went to hell under a lack of access and increased responsibilities....I was young and stupid...had a nice turn and good hands...so I forgive you for being an idiot.  What the hell are you talking about...technology having an exponentialy negative effect on my golfing experience.  Wait till you go from 25 to 44...and I'm still young by most standards.  Let me make this perfectly clear....Whatever money the top 100 classic courses in this country spend so they make their members feel better about themselves has no bearing on me or anyone I know. Please tell me how hitting the ball almost as good as I did in my youth hurts my experience...and don't bother waiting 19 years to tell me.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 04:10:43 PM by JakaB »

JakaB

Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2004, 04:04:35 PM »
That is way to much about me...would anybody care to tell me how the chapter in The Book stating Technology: Failing to Make Golf More Fun, More Affordable or More Interesting is an accurate premise.   I might understand less fun to watch...but I just can't believe that is the point of The Book...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 04:09:30 PM by JakaB »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Whine Fest for the Wine Set...The Book
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2004, 04:30:49 PM »
Barney,

JakaB said...

"...so I forgive you for being an idiot."

Wow, that's a mature way to have a discussion.

You forgive me for being an idiot because I am young, yet you have no other weapons in your debate style than to name call like a 12 year old.  Well, call me an idiot all you want.  Obviously, the only way for you to win a debate is to derail it.


JakaB said...

"Whatever money the top 100 classic courses in this country spend so they make their members fell better about themselves has no bearing on me or anyone I know"

I think it's fine that you believe this.  I have no problem with you disagreeing with my stance.  However, it's not only the Top 100 courses that are changing their courses.  It is all the new courses being built to extreme length to try to fit this modern image of what a golf course has to be in order to combat longer drives.  It also is affecting numerous courses built pre-1990 to build new tee boxes and the like.

Whether you want to believe it or not, by adding length to an existing course or by building new courses that are longer, you drive up the price of the game in all aspects.  A round of golf takes longer to play as well.  Also, using golf carts are more common than walking.  

Maybe this doesn't affect you at Victoria National but it does affect many golfers around the globe.  Most golfers are ignorant to the facts and don't realize they are shelling out their dough to, not only these "new and/or improved" golf courses, but to equipment manufacturers whos' only concern is to turn a higher profit this quarter than they did last quarter.  

The interest of the equipment manufacturer isn't the game of golf, it's the game of greed.  It's all about who can build bigger and better drivers, longer and straighter balls, easier and easier equipment to use, all in the name of "the golfer"at higher and higher prices.  Well, put simply, the "golfer" is getting bent over.  

Some "golfers" are unknowingly being screwed because they haven't put two and two together which I like to refer to as the group of "golfers" that are being drugged and date raped.  Then there are those like you who knowingly and willingly embrace this new technology which I like to refer to as the "drop the soap on purpose and see what happens" group of golfers.


JakaB said...

"Please tell me how hitting the ball almost as good as I did in my youth hurts my exerience...and don't bother waiting 19 years to tell me."[/b]

First off, it took me less than two hours.

Secondly, it may not hurt your golfing experience because you have shown that your enjoyment is more or less based on performance.  If it weren't based on performance alone then I don't see why you would have such a huge problem with aging and the realities that come with it.  It reminds me of those guys that buy Porshes during their mid-life crisis to make them forget thy're fat and bald and want bigger dicks.  Maybe you're going through golf's version of mid-life crisis.  

Is golf nothing more than how far you hit it or what you shoot?  When we played at Pajaro you were doing nothing but praising how fun it was to play golf with persimmon drivers and balatas on a golf course built to be played with that equipment.  It was a lot of fun.  You even agreed, so why the argument now?  

I'm not telling you to not play your new equipment, I'm just telling you that I think it will fundamentally change the sport into a game that few will be interested in.  Maybe you'll still love it and that's where you want golf to go.  Good luck in that endeavor.  

If you did some real research you'd find that many of the facts in Geoff's book are factual.  The sport of golf is losing 500,000 golfers a year right now.  That may not seem like much but it is huge.  I think this number will continue to grow even with a strong economy.

What may be right for John Kavanaugh is NOT good for the GAME.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 04:31:40 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2004, 04:37:24 PM »
So nice to see a good-natured, civil discourage...er...discourse.   :-\

ChasLawler

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2004, 05:12:44 PM »
Jeff - you mentioned the game of golf is losing 500,000 golfers per year right now. While that seems like an astonishingly high number, part of me has to wonder:

is that such a bad thing?

I love golf, for many reasons, but to be honest - I really don't care that much if the game grows or not. I'm going to continue to play regardless; and no, I don't think it's going to cost me anymore to play 10 years from now(inflation aside) if there are 5 million less golfer in the US.

Frankly, I think I'm getting tired of hearing about "growing" the game of golf.  Can you tell me what the upside is in that?

For what it's worth - I've read Geoff's book, and I agree with most of it, but the entire time I was reading it, the one thought running through my head was - why do we care so much about growing the game? Has anyone really given some thought to what would happen if 5 million golfers/ consumers stopped playing? I'm still mulling it over, but part of me thinks it might not be so bad. Perhaps that's just what golf needs - a good solid downsizing.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 05:49:41 PM by Rannulph_Junah »

hpembroke

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2004, 05:32:07 PM »
Can someone please remind me why this DG isn't as good as it use to be!!!

How ironic it is that a thread about the "Future of Golf in America" and about "growing the game", is the very same type of name calling, immature thread that is stopping the growth of this website and the Future of GCA.

Maybe it's just me, or maybe I'm just an idiot too!!!!

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2004, 05:57:21 PM »
Rannulph,

Let's talk about growing the game of golf.  It is something I do for a living.  Growing the game of golf wasn't a quote I even used in my above post, but I'll respond to your question anyway.

First, right off the bat you seem to think that losing golfers is a good thing.  That immediately tells me something about you as a golfer.  Golf isn't about golf, it's about your experience.  I can only assume your reasons for questioning whether or not losing golfers is a good thing since you chose not to state why.  My assumption is self-interest.  Maybe less people to contend with for tee times?  I don't know.  You tell me.

Sure maybe the first million or two players that golf loses wouldn't hurt the game on a grand level, but if it continues you'll have graveyards and condos where your golf courses are.  

Secondly, and most important to me is this...

I am watching junior golf deteriorate at n unbelievable rate.  Why?  Access.  Clubs simply don't want children running around their courses.  

At the club I was working at junior golfers not only were discouraged to play through silly rules being instituted by the club but they were being forced to ride in golf carts with their parents to bring in revenue.  Kids being forced to ride to bring in an extra $18 at a private club!  Revenue to keep already high costs for golf down.  How can people not see this link?

Is this "growing the game"?  Juniors were begging to go to the pool because they were unwanted on the golf course and they could sense it.  How fun is a game where no one wants you to play it?  There go your future members.  There go the future patrons of the sport.  All in the name of the dollar.  When I was a kid you could chip out all the range balls on the side of the range and get a free round from the pro.  He was truly "growing the game".

I am growing the game daily by exciting juniors to stick with the sport, to see it through, even though their own parents are driving them away from it!  I know how wonderful golf can be.  Yet, I see parents not wanting to spend money on the equipment or the awkward hours juniors are allowed to play don't fit their schedules.  All of this is because golf is costing more and more.  I see a direct link of how manufacturing companies that have taken control of the golf market in combination with extremely high course conditioning expectations have caused a chain reaction that is marginalizing the future of the sport.

This may not make sense to you because you may not work in the business.  Maybe you do recognize it and choose to ignore it.  All I know is what I experience and what I hear from my peers about the game.  Sure, some courses have great junior programs and they should be commended but many junior golf organizations are disappearing or being gobbled up by bigger ones which takes away the grass roots level introduction to kids that would become the future Tiger Woods or Rannulph Junahs.

How many Golf Channel shows are devoted to great golf courses, their design and history?  Zero.  Yet, there is an infomercial for the Perfect Club that runs 12 times a day.  You tell me who runs the game?

Golf may not ever die out as a name of a sport but its popularity and integrity is on a downward spiral that many choose to ignore in the name of longer drives and more accurate tee shots.  


Jeff F.




« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 09:52:03 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

CHrisB

Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2004, 06:11:41 PM »
Golf may not ever die out as a name of a sport but its popularity and integrity is on a downward spiral that many choose to ignore in the name of longer drives and more accurate tee shots.  

Jeff F,
So what's your solution?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2004, 06:26:26 PM »
hpembroke,
JakaB is an exceptional fisherman, he knows how to play and land a 200 lb. sturgeon with 10 lb. test.

Jeff,
I have seen a couple of private clubs in my area make it tougher for juniors to access their course but they still had  good programs for the member's kids. Eventually they ironed out the problems with the other juniors, which really started because a few members got pissed off that they had to wait to play their course.
I don't doubt what you have experienced but I don't think things are that bad. I was going to list some of the sites that don't share your views about the demise of junior golf but when I typed  "growth of junior golf programs" in the search box the sheer number of returns was overwhelming. I'd be typing all night.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Future of Golf in America...A Civil Discussion (isn't that nice)
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2004, 09:36:10 PM »
ChrisB,

Return the game, in regards to equipment, back to where it was in the early to mid 1990's.  That's my opinion anyway.


Jim_Kennedy,

The junior golf association I grew up with is gone.  It was swallowed by the SCPGA.  Desert Junior Golf had about 40 tournaments each summer.  Now there aren't more than a dozen since the SCPGA took over DJGA.  It's sad.

Large junior golf associations are gobbling up smaller ones and ruining any local level enthusiasm in many areas.

Just because Google says there are a bunch of junior golf associations doesn't necessarily prove that junior golf is healthier today then it was 10 years ago.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 09:36:32 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

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