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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2004, 02:15:17 PM »
You know, the more I look at this photo, the more obvious it becomes to me that this would be a much better hole if the rough area beyond the centerline bunkers was maintained as fairway. The best line to the green, by far, is down the left side of this hole, but you can't get close enough to the green by going left to make that shot worthwhile.

I'd keep the roughline relatively close to the bunker on the left, but provide a reward for someone who could fit it past the centerline bunkers.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

TEPaul

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2004, 02:26:17 PM »
RickS:

I don't know who designed and built that hole you just posted and it doesn't really matter, and for all I know it may play just fantastic and great stratetically. But the look of those bunker sets is a little different. Matter of fact, those round bunkers on those two sets, at least from the air, look almost exactly like the ersatz air holes on the front fenders of a 1955 Buick Dyna-Flo!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 02:26:43 PM by TEPaul »
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2004, 02:35:35 PM »
TEP --

It sure does. I even owned a 52 Buick for a while (the first Dynaflo transmission -- should have been the last.)

For the record, the course was designed by Dr. William Doebler; I believe this is his first and only course. I've played it many times, and find myself thinking of ways every hole could have been improved. But it's a unique experience for a Twin Cities golf course. I guess I'd give it a 4 on the Doak scale; it could have been a 7.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

americus

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2004, 02:39:51 PM »


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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2004, 03:53:07 PM »
#5 SH has the interesting hollow on the left of the bunker, which in conjunction with the bunker further down the fairway completely blocking your view of the green. There is actually a fair amount of room on the right of the central bunker, but you don't see much of it from the tee due to topography. An excellent hole, but not in the same league as #8 NGLA in my book, with regard to the centerline hazard.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2004, 03:56:48 PM »
Ed,

Does #1 at Barona count as having a centerline hazard? Pete L. told me of another GCA posters' disdain for said hazard....

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steven_Biehl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2004, 07:00:41 PM »
I think the centerline hazard in the 8th fairway at the Kingsley Club makes an excellent hole.  You can play to the right of the hazard (which is blind from the tee), and have a clear shot at the flag into the green.  If you choose to bail left off of the tee-which is the larger part of the fairway and visible from the tee-you are left with a very difficult pitch uphill and over a bunker.  For just 2 bunkers on the hole, it provides many interesting options.
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"He who creates a cricket ground is at best a good craftsman but the creator of a great hole is an artist.  We golfers can talk, and sometimes do talk considerable nonsense too, about our favourite holes for hours together." - Bernard Darwin, Golf

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2004, 07:05:00 PM »
Nah, its a second shot hazard anyway. They could certainly improve the hole with a centerline hazard in the drive landing area, and replacing the tree with a bunker complex. I don't really mind the tree so much. It is just not one of the better holes on the course. The green and surrounds are great, and it is a nice easy opening hole to get you into the round, before you tackle the 260yd par 3 third.
  How was the rest of the show in SD Joe?
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2004, 07:42:25 PM »
It's true there is a certain Left Coast GCA regular that hates that 100 year old oak in the middle of Barona's 1st fairway. It denies the 75 yard shot to the par 5 green and thus forces golfers to clearly decide to go for the green or lay well back. Clearly should the tree meet an untimely demise, something would need to replace it to maintain the hole's strategy.

Also a great call on the fairway bunker on #4 Ed. It gives 3 clear options: drive left of it and get the best angle, but flirt with the rough. Or drive staight over it, a safer drive but less angular reward; might be the smart play for front pin locations. The golfer can bail as far right as he wants, but the hole then gets increasingly harder, in terms of distance and direction.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 07:43:23 PM by Pete_L. »
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2004, 09:03:01 PM »
Rick Shefchik,

Great photo of multiple centerline hazards.

I also forgot the par 5 at Twisted Dunes which has a neat centerline bunker.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2004, 09:14:38 PM »
#1 @ Kingsley:



Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2004, 09:20:34 PM »
Ran,

How could you forget # 16 at Innescrone ?
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DPL11

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2004, 10:26:19 PM »
#8 at Hidden Creek.



and also #2 at HC. Both from Ran's review.






Doug
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2004, 10:30:47 PM »
Steven,
  Great call on #8 at KC. Mike did such a great job on a number of holes introducing uncertainty by using the topography to make some shots semi-blind.

Joe,
  What are you thinking!!!!?  :o :oThere is a regulation prohibiting photographs that show golf courses being irrigated. You are on probation for that one young man. ;)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 10:32:31 PM by ed_getka »
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ian

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2004, 10:33:44 PM »
16th at St. Andrews
4th at Woking
2nd at carnoustie

few are finer than those

Lehigh #10 is special because its the best use I have seen on a multi strategy approach. Note the sharp cross fall on the left andf the flatter right side.



Do you go left and feed, over it and run it on, dare fly it there; or even approach from the right side directly. Great hole. Here's from behind.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 10:34:54 PM by Ian Andrew »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2004, 10:44:53 PM »
Ed,

I just want to see what happens after probation. Double secret probation?



Joe
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 10:46:11 PM by JHancock »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2004, 11:13:59 PM »
Joe,
 Tsk, tsk, tsk... I warned you, now you will have to accept the consequences.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2004, 11:30:58 PM »
Here's the one that started strategic golf in the heathlnds: #4 at Woking.

And a little closer.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 11:33:13 PM by Pete_L. »
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2004, 12:45:49 AM »
Crenshaw & Coore's Talking Stick North has several really good centerline hazards.  #4 and #5 have bunkers smack in the middle of the fairway in the tee shot landing area.  Left, right or over?  Depends on pin location that day and how far you can hit it.  #12 the centerline hazard is a dry wash over a major waste area.  Left of the wash is very tight with OB left but leaving a short pitch to an unguarded green.  Right of the wash into a huge Elysian Fields leaves a longer approach shot over the dry wash which becomes a greenside bunker, with a more narrow target from the angle of attack.  Great design which seems to have utilized an existing wash.  Just typing this reminds me how much fun it was to play TSN.
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James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2004, 05:42:47 PM »
Pete L,

In my post #2, I described the hole briefly, but had no pictures readily to post via the internet.  I'm glad you had some to hand to describe this great hole.

James
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@EDI__ADI

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2004, 05:57:58 PM »
Everything RJ said about Wild Horse is right on. I was going to mention #15 first, because it is a great short par 4. The huge double fairway between 2 and 3 is also very good and the center bunkers play into a players thinking on each.

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Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2004, 06:05:49 PM »
Everyone should review RJ's "My Home Course" as he has pictures of most of the centerline hazards out there. Good stuff. Here is a picture of the 18th from the website.

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scratch

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2004, 06:35:49 PM »
The new Mike Clayton course at Ranfurlie bears a resemblance - well worth seeing.  It is a pity though - the members and most of the public can not understand the ideas that this course puts forward - and guess why ......... the lack of trees makes them think that there is no strategy.  Amazingly - these are some of the best designed greens in Melbourne.  Anyway, Wild Horse looks to be on a great piece of land and that bunkering looks just the way that bunkers should.  Job well done
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BigEdSC

Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2004, 08:23:29 AM »
I like the pond at 17 at County Down.  It makes you think to play short or around the hazard.  There isn't too much room on either side of it.

Another one I can think of is the bunkers at 4(?) at the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  I'm still trying to figure out the significance of them, other than putting two pot bunkers in a landing area.
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Centerline Hazards
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2004, 09:17:55 AM »
Quote from: BigEdSC on February 24, 2004, 08:23:29 AM
Another one I can think of is the bunkers at 4(?) at the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  I'm still trying to figure out the significance of them, other than putting two pot bunkers in a landing area.



As you can see, the bunkers aren't centerline.  They are on the right side of the fairway  They were added after a large "horseshoe" of marsh was filled in on the left side of the fairway about 20 yards short of the bridge.  That marsh area disallowed access to the left quarter of the fairway which is the best angle into the green.  When it was filled in, the bunkering was added to turn the hole more left to right.  When we grow the rough up, the rough line is to the left of the bunkers.
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