[Gene Greco]

Matt:

   I heard late spring early summer 2005 for start date.

I was told the golf course will be built on approx. 120 acres but Tom D could give you an exact # if he is lurking.

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

You're right -- I took the side of Pac and Bandon. However, it was the wider drop-off in quality between WF / East and any of the two gems in Oregon that gave the edge IMHO to the duo from the Northwest.

I have always been a major league fan of WF / West and believe it doesn't need all the "corrections" that routinely go to other sites of major events. When the Amateur s played this year we shall see the "new" WF / West minus all the invasive trees.

Arguably, one can make a very compelling case that three of the USA's top ten courses are from the Empire State.

 

[SPDB]

You'll get no argument here, unless it is that it possesses more than 3. I'll assume you are including your beloved BPB in this top 10?

[SPDB]

Matt - More importantly, since medal play will be conducted over the two courses, we'll see how WFE stacks up against its big brother. Should provide pretty conclusive evidence to fill your most important criteria - toughness.

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

Have to debunk this notion that Ward ONLY favors courses with sharp fangs that inflict gross punishment .. far from it.

Winged Foot / East is just less architecturally compelling than its big brother. Heck, I would rather play nearby at Fenway because of the array of features you see there versus those on the East. To be totalyl candid -- I believe the East benefits in having the West close by because many people will play little brother and therefore bump up its appeal.

To answer your question on the top ten in the USA I would have the following NY courses ...

Shinnecock as my #1
Winged Foot / West somewhere around #5
NGLA likely grabs the 10th spot

Bethpage Black would not make the top ten because the totality of its greens are not at the highest of levels. Yes, I love the layout but you have to assess all the aspects and the greens at BB are certainly a slight weakness even though about 1/3 of them are very good. I would likely have it in the next grouping of ten courses though.

[SPDB]

Matt - that's an interesting observation. WFE definitely possesses the better property of the two, so it seems odd that the West came out on top. Tillie recognized the superior strength of the West, but was quite fond of the East.

I'll be anxious to see how it fares in US Am. medal play, relative to its big brother (making of course, a slight allowance for its shorter overall length).

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

Hold on partner -- you now start to add a caveat about making allowances for the difference in length in regards to this year's Amateur. How bout the simple notion that you just simply look at scores period?

The argument that the East has the better property should have then pushed the course ahead of the West, but that's not the case. The West has the better array of holes and the start and finish clearly put the West a good way ahead of its little brother IMHO.

Unfortunately, the West has been tagged by a few of its detractors as simply being a beast of a layout ... that is certainly true given some of the scores shot on the layout but like Bethpage Black the architectural elements that Tillie imbued at both courses are there without question and need to be talked about more so than just how demanding / difficult the two layouts can be.

[Jeff Fortson]

Sean,

I like the Creek because I think it is a quality design.  I find the green complexes to be some of the best in NY.  Sure, it isn't very long, and yes, it is benign in the opening holes.  But the meat of the course for me (6-16) is strategically sound enough that you don't need length to make it any more difficult or fun.  


Jeff F.

[frank_D]

Bayonne GC - when it goes on-line

(and before someone indicates its NOT in NY - well neither are the NY Jets or NY Giants)

[SPDB]

Matt -
Fine, I'll just look at the scores. I do note that the East will play at roughly the same length that the West did for the '97 Open.

The course record (61) is the same for both courses (and held by the same man - Claude Harmon). Interestingly, he set the record on the West while listening to a Yankees world series game. Maybe that suggests the course is easier?  

I think you have to concede though, that the gulf between the West and East has grown wider simply the West holds the tournament, and gets more attention in strengthening its architecture and toughness. THat's the only caveat I would add.

And as far as these "detractors" are concerned. Who are these people? You make it sound as if you are taking a contrarian position by placing WFW among the top courses in the US. I don't, however, know of anyone who would disagree with you. These detractors are merely your own windmills.

Jeff -

Agreed, I can only imagine how you must feast on #s 7 and 18. What's your second favorite hole there? (assuming that #6 is your fav.)

[Matt_Ward]

frank d:

Surely you jest!

We in Jersey will take credit for those layouts that are within our borders -- no less than when people say that Pine Valley is really just outside of Phillie -- it's in Jersey!

[frank_D]

We in Jersey will take credit for those layouts that are within our borders

Brother Matt Ward

question -

   1) is Ellis Island in NY or NJ ?

   2) is Liberty Island in NY or NJ ?

   3) is Gardiners Island part of NY ?

[SPDB]

Frank D:

1. Ellis Island is in NJ, the US Supreme Court settled that a few years ago.

2. Governor's Island is located in NY

3. Gardiner's Island is located in NY

Bayonne, thankfully, is located in NJ, although you wouldn't know given that the majority of NY's trash resides there.

[G_Tiska]

I think construction will start at Bayberry sometime this year.

[Matt_Ward]

frank d:

I've see the plans associated with the new layout in Bayonne and it does look to be a solid product but there will be some time before it eventually opens.

SPDB:

Now -- now ... let's speak well of Bayonne -- it will be likely the first 18-hole regulation course in Hudson County. A second is likely to follow in Jersey City of all places. It just seems everything that is in Manhattan is now drifting across the Hudson. Oh -- I forgot -- there is one thing you can keep in NYC -- the upcoming Republican Convention.


What might be interesting is to list the top 10 NY courses that are at 6,500 yards and less? I know The Creek has been mentioned already but there are other first rate contenders for such a mention -- Westchester and Nassau has quite a few.
Getting back to the focus of the thread I would dare say

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