[Rick Shefchik]

The Riviera thread brought up the green on #6, with the interior bunker. You get on the wrong side of that bunker and a lofted chip is your only chance to get close to the hole. But what I see far more often are scalloped greens -- the kind where there are indents of rough near the center of the green, creating bulges at either end; you can be on the fat part of one end, but close to the fringe, necessitating a chip shot over the indent to reach the hole on the opposite half of the green.

My home course has a number of figure-8 or scalloped greens like this, and while I think our greens are outstanding, I'm not terribly fond of taking a divot out of them with a wedge -- although I have, when necessary. I'm sure the greeenskeeper doesn't like it, either -- but then again, not many recreational players realize you are allowed to do this. (I'm sure he has to repair far more divots taken out of greens by angry players who missed their two-footer for bogey.)

Is this too minor an issue for an architect to worry about? I could see one or maybe two greens of this style on a course, but that's about it. I can't think of many classic courses I've played where this is an issue, but it seems as though odd green shapes are making this shot more of a necessity on modern courses. Is that a good thing?

[Mike_Cirba]

There are greens at Pasatiempo where this might be a reasonable play.  I'm thinking "putting" on #six from the front right to a back right hole location.  

[THuckaby2]

Good call re Pasa, Mike.  But you don't have to worry about it too much there - they rarely tuck the pins in the corners where a chip might be the best play to. Possibilities for this do exist though at 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 13, 14... but #6 is the most likely candidate... last time I was there the pin was way back in the tongue and I faced the exact shot you describe.  For someone with skill lofting shots off tight lies, a lob would have been a very reasonable play.  As for me, I putted it off the left side and got it to 6 feet or so.  Oh sure, a lob MIGHT have done better than that....  

I see instances of this on a lot of modern courses out here as well... there's a place called Eagle Ridge that must have 9 greens where this could happen.  Fortunately most people either think it's against the rules, or just punt and assume a putt's a better play anyway, so the greens stay divot-free.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

I forget which hole at Tobacco Road, but the green has U shape to it and I was on the wrong side of the U and chipped in for birdie as the marshall watched in horror. I replaced my divot

[Robert Kimball]

Hey, thanks for the clarification, guys.  
Even so, I would still be WAY too nervous to risk taking a hunk of sod with my wedge (especially if I were being hosted at Riviera)!!  And good point about #6 at Pasa as well.  That green can get some nasty pins on it.

I wonder if the TV guys will even bring it up? It's a pretty famous hole, IMO. ..  

[Brian_Gracely]

Hurricane,

The only greens I can think of at Tobacco Road that might be considered "U Shaped" would be #6 or #17, both are Par 3s that have very wide and narrow greens.  But I can't picture where you would have needed to chip on either of those greens, although I've never been on the wrong half of the green on #17 (which literally would be about a 30-40yd miss with a 8-PW   )

[A_Clay_Man]

Since I havent seen the Riv, isn't it possible to putt and use the slopes to get up and down?

[Dan Kelly]

... it seems as though odd green shapes are making this shot more of a necessity on modern courses. Is that a good thing?

I say: No.

I don't think it's a good thing to require a lob wedge on the green -- though I don't think it's a bad thing to put that OPTION into the player's mind once in a while.

Of course, the superintendent has as much to say about that as the architect, sometimes.

[Kevin_Reilly]

... it seems as though odd green shapes are making this shot more of a necessity on modern courses. Is that a good thing?

Of course, the superintendent has as much to say about that as the architect, sometimes.

Or the Greens Committee or the Membership Committee...I can't imagine taking a divot out of a green to save a skin in a casual game....allowable but not advisable!

[tonyt]

If somebody is used to lobbing the ball and isn't proficient at putting over more contoured ground, doesn't TOC present a lot of these options?

I've used a few 8 irons on the Melbourne sandbelt when I've had to go over fringe areas where I'd rather the ball bobble than risk just plain rolling. Less inflammatory than a wedge.

[JSlonis]

Mickleson chipped from the green on the last hole at the TPC Scottsdale a few weeks ago.  I think he also did the same on the final hole at The Belfry in the last Ryder Cup...from the front of the green up 2 tiers to a back hole location.

[Rick Shefchik]

Well, that's what I'm getting at, Kevin. Shouldn't the architect at least have an understanding with the club owner or membership that, if chipping from the green is going to be discouraged or even prohibited, he won't design greens that make that shot the best option?

I think clubs should make every effort to avoid re-writing the rulebook.

[THuckaby2]

Rick:

My feeling is you answered it right there - that is, it's not going to be the BEST option for anyone other than tour pros and those very skilled with the wedge.  Like I said about #6 Pasa - if one can putt to 6 feet, it takes a lot of skill with lobs off tight lies for the lob to be the BEST option.

So it's always going to be a non-issue really.  Oh hell yes, it sure shouldn't be overdone (as it is at the Eagle Ridge course I mention), but for a green or two on any given course, well... it does make for some darn interesting pin positions, so to me the good outweighs the bad.

TH

[JakaB]

Mickleson chipped from the green on the last hole at the TPC Scottsdale a few weeks ago.  I think he also did the same on the final hole at The Belfry in the last Ryder Cup...from the front of the green up 2 tiers to a back hole location.

Don't forget to mention that the Phillip took three to get down in both cases....I thought the Ryder Cup instance was showboating and not required..the Scottsdale shot was his best choice....but he still missed the putt coming back.

[James Edwards]

Mr Hurricane, Brian,

Isn't the U shaped green, number 8 at Tobacco Road, the short hole?  I've just checked my photos and I believe it is so??

James

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom --

I'm no great wedge player, but on my home course it really is the best option from certain locations on #1, #2, #8, #12, #14, #15, #16 and #18 (aside to Dan Kelly: some of these are from experience, and some just from imagining shots that could arrise -- I actually thought of several other greens on the course where it might make sense under certain circumstances, too.)

Fortunately, there is no local rule at our course that prohibits using a wedge on the green, because I really have had to use that shot a few times. But maybe the greens at my course are more extreme in that regard than most.

[Brian_Gracely]

Mr Hurricane, Brian,

Isn't the U shaped green, number 8 at Tobacco Road, the short hole?  I've just checked my photos and I believe it is so??

James

#8 at Tobacco Road has a 3-tiered green that is somewhat similar to #18 at Valhalla, except it sits at somewhat of an angle to the tee, http://tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole8.html.  I suppose if you were way in the front right and the flag was back right, hard against the edge that you could potentially see the need to ship.  I've personally never seen that combination happen in any of my rounds.

[THuckaby2]

Rick:

You must have very extreme greens AND be a very good wedge player.  I'm having a hard time imagining instances where that is the BEST play all of the time for too many people, no matter how severe the greens are...  Even at Pasa, which has to have some of the wilder greens around, it's only for the very best players the BEST play, in even the most extreme imaginable pin placements...

But if that's the case for you, then you're right - that isn't a good thing - must be hell for maintenance and that's never good.

TH

[JSlonis]

JakaB,

Agree with you 100% on both accounts.  At Pheonix it was his only play, and although it's 100% speculation...it seemed to me at the Ryder Cup, that he made that play because of his "fancy shortgame", and it would have been a more spectacular way to make a par.

[Jason Mandel]

 The first and only time I recall seeing it is this past year in the Mid-Am Semi Finals at Wilmington.  George Zahringer was dormi and on 17 needed a miracle to win the hole, and he was a good 50 feet from the pin.  Zahringer chose to chip, it didn't out as he was hoping but I still thought it took a lot of guts to pull that play out of your bag in that situation.

Jaso

[Scott_Burroughs]

Brian/Jim,

Another hole at Tobacco Road with a U-green is #15:



from the far left, you can't even see the right side of the
green.  I'll have to show you some time soon, Brian.  

[Dan Kelly]

Rick --

Yes, I can see all of those potential shots -- and a few others.

What I meant by the Superintendent/Architect comment above was that in virtually all of those cases at Oak Glen, you wouldn't think about the wedge shot if they wouldn't let the grass just off the fringe get long and thick. You'd take your chances, most times, with a putt off the green and then back on. Right?

[Rick Shefchik]

Right.

I just can't see trying to putt through the rough. It's tough enough trying to judge one of those putts where you need to roll it from the green onto a 15-foot strip of fringe and then back onto the green. When the shot is green to fringe to rough to fringe to green, I'm chipping.

[gookin]

Rick,

On some of Raynor's courses he used the "lions mouth". This feature  seperated the front portions of the green by a deep faced bunker. There is a picture of one from CC of Charleston on this site.  The ninth green at Fox Chapel Golf Club had it as part of the original design.  It was removed in the early 30's.  Who knows why?  We are considering putting this back as part of a long term plan to restore the original integrity our Raynor's design.  If we try to make it happen, we will argue that it is a part of "classic" architecture.

[Rick Shefchik]

gookin -- Will you also permit chipping on the green? To me, it's only fair. If you're going to present that kind of situation to a player, you should permit him to solve it any way he thinks best (within the rules -- and chipping on the green, as we've established, is within the rules.)

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