[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy;

Is that a Great White?  

Seriously, what is the play for tour level players?  It's tough to tell from the angle how much fairway is on the left to avoid it, or what line an aggressive player might attempt.  

What options does it create for the rest of us?

[RJ_Daley]

Well, if the idea was to make it more dangerous to take an agressive line off the tee, or simply penal for penal's sake, to defend par, I can't say.  What I think I know is that if the placement is what is compatible with the rest of the course's theme from the desire to defend par,  then I think that Dave and Dan could have built a better compatible to Thomas's style appearing bunker.  Someone above called it a "puzzle piece" when a "green breaking wave" is more appropriate.  These tongues ought to hold up better than thinner ones that are more compatible to the design.  Here, just a little too much cape and bay and flash, yet the whole zone of influence of this hazard in this style covers more potential area.  Is the positioning VS style good?  You tell me.  Or, let that fellow in the bunker give us his take...

[Thomas_Brown]

Good pic Tommy but when you're in it, it feels a lot deeper.

Geoff Shack. said in an earlier thread that this one and #15 are way off.  He's much more qualified than I, but I still think these updates are really necessary.  Re: #15 - Who on Tour hits it only 285 - so what if Pavin has a blind shot.  I know that hole usually plays into the wind - maybe some of the players will only hit it there.

Riv & ANGC evoke strong emotions because everybody knows and loves them.  20 years ago the horseshoe at Colonial was something - Now it's a long par 3 and a couple of layup teeshots.

Tom

[Tom_Doak]

In pictures of the old Riviera, there was a bunker like this on #17, which I always thought of as a "whale's tail."  It was on the right about 200 yards off the tee, I think.

Since I've been going to the course, the bunker was still kind of there, but had been divided into two sections so the cart path could run through the middle of it.

Did Fazio restore the bunker, or move it?

[Geoff_Shackelford]

This is a new bunker, meant to look like the old one, only beamed up by Scotty and placed to make someone think twice about hitting a 300 yard drive.

I understand the intent, and I'm suspect Tom Meeks and David Fay would approve, but it's out of character for Riviera and has now made the tee shot boring for the members, who used to at least have the old cart path divided thing to give their overcut tee shots trouble. But the members are not a factor in the thinking.

The old bunker was also off to the side more and certainly not as garrish and sadly overdone (I like RJ's puzzle piece description). It was about 180 off the member tee, 230 (uphill) off the old back tee, and probably would have been about 250 off the new back tee had it not been bulldozed.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

[JohnV]

Is there a limit to the number of bunkers at Riviera?  Why didn't the leave the old one there for the members when the put the new one in?

Were they trying to fool the tour players by taking out the old one and making this one look similar?  "Gee, last year I hit it over that bunker with no problem, now I can barely reach it, I better get a more hi-tech driver from the rep at the range."

[Thomas_Brown]

JohnV - In the practice round yesterday, Pat Bates said almost that exact thing as his ball was in the air.

Tommy's juxta. pic is great.

Tom

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Tommy N.,

It seems the scale of the setting is much more grand in the old photo.  The land form in the bunker in the old photo seems bulkier, and the lack of trees hiding the distant hill adds more to the scene.  Are the trees hiding something we do not want to see, or should they go?

[David Wigler]

Toomy,

It is obvious why they coined you the first "Forensic Golf Architect."  

We need to hook up soon.  I don't remember why, but I know I owe you a bowl of pasta and a bottle of wine.

[RJ_Daley]

99% of everyone in that black and white photo are dead now, and so is 95% of that golf course, and 50% of the game they were playing.  It seems like one can pick any era in Riviera's existence and yearn for it, but no two eras were all that much alike.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

All good and valid points.

The new bunker being 300 yards from the tee is well, synonomous with the Fazio way of doing work at Merion, Augusta and Riviera--its all aimed at one thing--one type of player. One type of mentality. It has little to do with strategy, more the elimination of it for the people who pay to be members of this golf course. The truth is, they're getting ripped off.

The people doing this work have no understanding what-so-ever of the principles of Captain Thomas' golf architecture.

To reiterate the two pictures posted, the AFTER shot was taken  close to the original spot of the BEFORE picture. The original bunker was built into a movement. The new one has been tied-into (and not very good) surface much further down the fairway.

Tom Brown, The point isn't just depth, its called taste, because that bunker to me doesn't look anywhere near the quality of Thomas & Bell. To me it looks artificial. Like somebody was mis-interpreting what a Riviera/Bell bunker should look like.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
I'm looking forward to that day!

[SPDB]

Thomas - Terrific work with that picture side-by-side.  

Do the members typically play from the same tees as the pros? i.e. does it only have the 300 yard player in mind from the way back tees, and also have the 260 player in mind from others?

[Thomas_Brown]

Tommy - I'll grant you your points.  The bunker built into the slope was better.  From yesterday's sprinkler in the fairway, I think the bunker is 285(590 hole - 305 sprinkler) yards off of the tee.  SPDB's point about the members playing the back tee is so valid - The white tees are 50 yards up.

My point - It's easy to criticize others work.
I don't think you can just leave Riv defenseless w/ Pro V1x out there.  e.g. -nobody could carry the trap on #15 w/ Titleist 386 when #15 was only 460.

Tom

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tommy Naccarato,

Why does the old bunker and fairway seem substantially elevated above the green in the foreground versus the more recent picture.

Has substantial grading taken place subsequent to the old photo ?

[Brad Klein]

I have heard from a very reliable source that Fazio/Marzolf asked Shackelford to be involved with them at Riviera and he turned them down. If that's true. I wonder if that was a good thing.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tommy,

What year is that old photo?  Notice the tree saplings recently planted in it?  Now they're the big ones in the current pic which block views of the rest of the course, amongst other things.

Pat Mucci,

Nice catch with the apparent different elevations with the two pics.  Perhaps the slgihtly different angle and the current pic is taken a little closer to the green creates an illusion.  Also, as said above, that old bunker was removed and moved, so they had to have done some type of grading.  The 'valley' between the two holes appears a little deeper in the old pic.

[Andrew_Roberts]

I read this article on ESPN.com by Bob Harig and it really pissed me off.

The article is called, "Mostly unchanged, Riviera still relevant"

I quote,

Perhaps it sounds like yearning for the past, but the truth is there just are not many courses today like Riviera Country Club, certainly not many in use on the PGA Tour.

The site of this week's Nissan Open in Pacific Palisades, Calif., opened in 1926 and is very much the same as George C. Thomas designed it back in the days before widespread use of steel shafts. Many of the holes are defined by canyon walls and large eucalyptus trees. It has classic bunkering. And it remains modern enough for today's players and equipment.
"It's one of the best-designed golf courses that we play all year,'' said Tiger Woods, who has never won his hometown event near Los Angeles. "It's fair. It's hard, but it's fair. It's right there in front of you. There are no hidden surprises. Every bunker is right there. There's only one blind tee shot, which is (No. 18). There are no bunkers up there. You know where the fairway is. You have to go out there and hit it.''

Other than the major championships, Riviera yielded the third-highest winning score in relation to par last year when Mike Weir won at 9-under. Only the American Express Invitational (6-under) and the Canadian Open (8-under) were higher.


And that is a factor that Woods enjoys.

"I love when we get a golf course when single digits (under par) win,'' he said. "Double digits you have to play unbelievable golf. That's the way it should be. I don't like tournaments where you have to go out and shoot 25 under par, and you know that going into the week. I don't like tournaments like that.

"It doesn't reward good ball striking, the guys who know how to play smart. It's more of a dart contest, who is playing the best that week. When you get a golf course that's firm, fast, and hard, it requires shot making and, more importantly, it requires a lot of thinking. You can't go up there and just hit a golf shot. You have to place the ball correctly and be smart.''

Riviera was home to Ben Hogan's first U.S. Open victory in 1948. It also hosted the 1983 PGA Championship as well as the 1995 PGA. It has a world-famous finishing par-4 hole that has been lengthened to make it even more difficult. And it remains one of the rare, old gems on the PGA Tour.


http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?page=TWIG040218

I am steamed at this article
I suggest all of us to go to this website and write Bob Harig and tell him how this course is being screwed up Mr. Fazio and Mr. Marzolff.  And how in essence the course is activly being changed away from George Thomas' design.

You may write him at the bottom of his page.

If 10 or more of us write him he may get the message on how this course is being screwed up.

Thanks

[SPDB]

Andrew - How often do/have you play(ed) Riviera?

[JakaB]

Andrew,

I understand you are steamed but I don't know why....Do you think the course has been improved for the pros...Isn't that the crux of the article.   From an ESPN kinda view...shouldn't we be happy the owner of Riviera has invested the money it takes to keep the course in the championship rota...most of us people only get to see a course like this on TV...Isn't that a good thing...to be entertained in an ESPN kinda way.   What would you prefer as a fan of TV golf....move the tournament to a boring venue for the sake of an owner that doesn't want it moved and a membership who doesn't care enough to make the sacrifices to force a change.   Don't tell me that membership couldn't raise $100 million if it meant the world to them...

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Jaka B
The changes being made, more length, started with the intent of obtaining a US Open.  As a former GM at Riviera once said, "the pros would play the LA Open on a freeway if the money was there."  Most of the changes started with the consent of the USGA.  Presently with little chance for the Open, the local management and Marzolff are having fun spending money playing with bunkers.
I was a member there 15 years and I am convinced you couldn't get more than 25 members to put in $100,000 each to buy the place.
But in watching the Golf Channel this afternoon I was struck with how the media and players marvel at the place.  I have listened to this for 25 years.  "It is such a classic design."  Then if everyone raves about it, why aren't today's courses built more like Riviera?
Do the players and media have no influence in architecture?

[mikeyolympic]

here's the view of the new bunker from the 17th tee... it actually looks like it needs to be there from here...it sort of defines the hole better in a sense... did i just say that?

[JakaB]

I was a member there 15 years and I am convinced you couldn't get more than 25 members to put in $100,000 each to buy the place.

Lynn,

I was in bed and thinking that my $100 million number was low just based on the cash flow of LA and the history of the place...the architecture really is secondary in the status game this place has.....400 members at $250,000 apiece...I was low wasn't I...what is the number the current owner was thinking of when a buy out was tossed around some time ago...just for giggles.

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