News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Please note, each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us and we will be in contact.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lost art of deception
« on: November 25, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
What architect was/is the master of practising deception? Pick both one past and one present architect and provide some specific examples that most appeal to you.Is this lost art form one of the most overlooked elements in modern day course design?

John Sessions

The lost art of deception
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Donald Ross is the acknowledged master of deception. In particular, his use of fore bunkers or bunkers that seat well of the greens make me always question if I have the right club. The resulting swing is often a joke. As for the modern guys, I am unaware of a single example of "deception" that Rees Jones or Tom Fazio has ever employed. Perhaps that is exactly what is missing from their designs?Victoria National has received a lot of attention here lately; is it a deceptive necessarily course or is it more straightforward in its difficulties?

peter_p

The lost art of deception
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
MacKenzie had a lot of deception with hidden swales distorting distance.It's a neglected art in modern architecture, because we are provided with exact yardages and maps showing the lay of the land. Nicklaus' penchant with raised teeslooking down at the target also negates deception. It works best with slightly elevated greens or other methods where the base of the flag or the whole green can't be seen.I think Kidd's # 12 at Bandon Dunes has some of the traits. It has a massive sod face  bunker  guarding the middle of the green. It is such a dominant feature you almost miss the subtle helping slope on the right side. Of course a wind from the SW doesn't help.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lost art of deception
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
That is an interesting point about Bandon Dunes - I imagine Kidd spent heaps and heaps of undivided time there, so the fact that he could re-introduce that missing element of deception comes as little surprise vs. those architects that stamp out 20 courses a year.

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
This might be the best question I've seen in many months of daily reading etc on GCA.I hope this post continues for awhile and exhausts all the myriad general and specific examples of all the deceptive techniques of the great Golden Age designers that the knowdedgeable people who contribute to GCA are aware of.Lack of deception might also be one of the fundamental breaking points of the Modern Age era from the Golden Age era.I'll save for later all the numerous little deceptive tricks designers like Ross, Flynn and Mackenzie used with their feature and topographical design ploys;oops got to go to dinner!

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Whereas most of the "Modern Age" design is without much deception, no one can deny that the "heroic" carries of some of the Florida lake carries are incredibly deceptive. A perfect specific example is the arc-shaped #7th par 5 hole at Bay Hill. The first time there one very well might choose what seems like a reasonable line and land almost in the middle of a 30 acre lake. After that (and some of Dye's diagonal lake carries ie. Old Marsh) not too much comes to mind. The carry to the right side of the 17th green (Bay Hill) is deceptive and seems to trip up the touring pros year after year. But the Golden Age Guys! Now there's a bag of tricks. Ross' misaligned tee boxes; constant use of skyline" greens (no visual hand-holding): dramatic and radical "dropshots", Merion West's #6 and Lehigh's # 7, where one must just blindly guess club selection even with exact yardage. Then there was the constant use of playing on a horizontal from tee to green through a steep valley (Ross and Flynn) and the general use of cross-bunkering 20-50 yards in front of greens that seems to be up against green fronts. I hear "The Faz" won't consider cross-bunkering. How about the "heroic" diagonal cape hole carries (Mid Ocean #5). In fairness to the "Modern Age", Rees Jones has some really wonderfully deceptive tee shots at Huntsville (Scranton, Pa.-this is a really good course!!).One of the most deceptive holes I've ever seen is again the 17th at Maidstone both in a straight line and side to side. Even playing the hole many times I'm always amazed how different the tee shot seems when you get to the fairway compared to what it looked like from the tee.The best modern visual deception I've seen recently is the staggered bunker placement on the tee shot on Stonewall's #1. The second shot has some good visual deception too, and I'm not even talking about the enormous totally blind lake on the right. The "Modern Age" design seems to want to dictate instead of deceive, but the modern use of yardage for every shot certainly hasn't help the cause of deception in any era.There is a lot of good deception on the carries at Old Head; up-hill, down-hill, diagonal, and every which way. the course is only a few years old but it feels like it has been there for ten thousand years.Great question Ran!

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lost art of deception
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Dear Tom,I might be wrong but I would certainly wager that Gulph Mills is full of deception? If so, what are some examples?Cheers,Ran

T_MacWood

The lost art of deception
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
I don't believe there has been a architect, past or present, that studied the art of deception more than Alister MacKenzie. His well documented background in military camouflage and trench making gave him unique expertise in the psychology of deception.The two main connections between golf course design and military trench making were:1.Make all artificial features indistinguishable from natural ones. Contours should harmonize with the undulations of the surrounding country. Lastly absolutely avoid the least suspicion of a straight line.(when he began designing, he said the only courses worth while were the "sand-dune courses by the sea", his bunkers were designed imitate those natural dunes) 2. The second parallel is a more psychological one. In trench warfare, you disguise your true location by making it indistinguishable from its surroundings, while at the sametime creating visible earthworks that deceive the enemy into believing that is your position.MacKenzie believed in placing bunkers in  fairways and in strategic points in the line of play so that players would be forced to shoot for clearly defined areas. He emphasised this strategy by creating hazzards that were plainly visible and that appeared more terrible than they actually were. The player who follows this defined route is many times left with more difficult or much longer approach.Tom Doak does a great job illustrating two examples in his 'The Anatomy of a Golf Course'. The 4th at Royal Melbourne(W) and the 5th at Yarra Yarra. Cypress Point has many examples, including the 2nd, 5th & 8th.As far a contemporary deception artists, I'll have to think about it.

DBE

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lost art of deception
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
The par five sixth hole at Bay Hill?  What is it that deceives you?  The boulders, indigenous to central Florida?

Tom Fazio

The lost art of deception
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
I am the master of modern deception, and I think my track record speaks for itself. I continue to turn out bland after bland course and receive accolades that I'm a genius. Of course, Rees, doesn't even turn out decently built ones and people think he's a genius too. Maybe he's the master of modern deception. Come to think of it, Bob Cupp, Art Hills...the list just goes on and on.

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
David:The 6th at Bay Hill, boulders? Maybe I have the wrong hole or even the wrong course, or I'm just not very observant, some of them do seem to run together, but isn't the 6th the hole that keeps curving or arcing left around the enormous lake that is bordered on the other side by like the #3 par 5? I probably haven't been there in ten years but I thought I remembered thinking you could cut of a portion of the lake that wasn't remotely close; maybe the fact that I don't hit it real far helped too.

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Ran:I wouldn't say Gulph Mills is full of deception, but it could be that I know it so well now, but there are a few areas. Of course it has the typical Ross tee (#3) that is misdirected. I've heard he did that on purpose and also that he never did, but in any case #3 is and it accomplishes its purpose. #3 is actually deceptive in that the broad sweep into the valley gives you the impression that you can drive it over the meandering creek or even the road which even Tiger couldn't (well I take that back) but it might deceive the unknowing to try and end up in water. I was there yesterday with Kye Goalby and David Staebler looking over Gil Hanse's wonderful master plan on the course and it is clear that Ross did have quite a bit of deception which has been gutted by evolution. At least two of his "skyline" greens were redesigned down off the really high hillcrests they were on and the third now has a tree framing backdrop (we will hopefully restore that one).The course is basically classic early Ross with a lot of rope off the tees but subtely ratcheting up as you get closer to the greens. It really is his philosophy of hard par easy bogie and our members love the place. What I like about that kind of design is you make a bogey or worse and you're not real sure what went wrong, but with the "modern Age" stuff it is dictated to you and obvious what went wrong.

DBE

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lost art of deception
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
TEPaul,Yes, the sixth at Bay Hill is a par five that curves around a large lake.  Its the hole where John Daly kept trying to bite off the lake with his tee shot and scored an 18???!!!###****  Palmer Design (Ed Seay) redid some things and among the changes were the installation of hundreds of boulders between the greens that were on water (#'s 3, 6, 8, 11, 13 and 18--they must have run out for the 16th and 17th). They look so natural they must have found them on the property!

Mike_Cirba

The lost art of deception
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Even if boulders are indigenous to a site (I'm sure they look completely natural at Bay Hill!), I have to say that they make terrible hazard boundaries.  Two Pete Dye courses I've played recently both utilize this new "feature", and I have to think it's misguided.At one, Mystic Rock at Nemacolin Woodlands SE of Pittsburgh, Boulders were clearly indigenous to the site, and where they appear naturally in areas out of play (woods, surrounding hillsides, etc.), they do add a beautiful, raw element to the course.  However, they are also used extensively to line each water hazard, and their symmetrical appearance is both un-natural looking as well as just a bad design feature.  Balls landing there can basically go "anywhere" upon carom, and therefore, unlike his formerly used railroad ties, do little to establish a clear boundary line for the hazard.  Boulders are once again used prominently at Bulle Rock in MD, primarily on the closing holes, to the same unnatural effect.  Mind you, I have nothing against incorporation of previously existing man-made rock walls ala North Berwick, or even the use of naturally existing rock escarpments or ledges in the flow of a hole.  But, I think we need to discourage the thinking that boulders which have been excavated during site construction have a ongoing creative purpose in the subsequent design of the course.  

GeoffreyC

The lost art of deception
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Great question. Clearly (to me) Ross and MacKenzie were the best at deception as others have mentioned.  However, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the advent of very accurate and numerous yardage markers on every course both new and old as making deception much less effective.  Perhaps this is one reason more direct visual intimidation the direct opposite of deception as coming into vogue in modern designs.As far as examples of use of deception in modern designs, I can think of no better example than a beautiful par three (the 4th??) at Talking Stick South by Coore and Crenshaw. It is about 210 yards with an intimidating huge bunker that looks like it's guarding the front right of the green.  In fact it's about 25 yards shor of the putting surface with a rather routine pitch for those missing the green to the right.  You are almost visually forced to think about missing left but the bunker complex and up against the green on that side and the pitch to all but the most right pin locations is much more difficult.  Even though I knew the yardage, I didn't know that bunker was so much short of the putting surface when playing it the first time. This was all done on a pancake flat piece of scrub desert.  GOOD JOB C&C!

rkg

The lost art of deception
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Geoffry,Great call on the hole at talking stick.  It is number 6 (comes back to the clubhouse).  that hole is a marvelous modern example of this topic.  The green also creates an illusion that it is oriented at an angle to the tee, when in fact it is not.  This is a great example of Bill Coore and Co.'s being in the field and getting it right by sight.  That is probably one reason it is a "lost art" since a lot of modern design is done on paper, with a contractor executing the field work.  

David Staebler

The lost art of deception
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
The 13th at Gulph Mills has a visual trick it plays on me every time.  The hole is a 420-ish uphill par 4.  The green sits in a saucer or saddle with a bunker to its left.  Every view you get of the green until it is reached makes it look wider than it is deep.  Of course just the opposite is the case.  On a hole that usually calls for a strong mid to long iron approach, the visual intimidation of a shallow green adds to the tension.  Knowing what your eye sees isn't true doesn't necessarily make believing it any easier.

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
David:Good observation on GMGC #13 looking wider than it is deep and really not being so. With Hanse's idea for a carom area to the right of the green (restoration),which will actually be blind, it will just get better, and don't forget although the green is deep enough Ross originally had a classic "kick-up" on the back of the green that would feed shots to the back of the green back down to the pin. Kye's idea of fairway bent behind the green would also be a great idea; think of all the options one would have trying to get a ball from behind the green back down over the "kick-up".GeoffC and Kye:The deceptive use of the bunkering at Talking stick's #6 is terrific and a much used deception tactic by Ross and Flynn. All the bunkering in a diagonal and the cross bunkering by Ross 20-50 yds in front of many greens at GMGC really isn't visually deceptive due to the uphill topography. Flynn's best deceptive example of this kind is in front of #10 at Lehigh (the bunker looks flush up against the front of the green and actually may be 40 yards short-and it isn't a flat hole!!).Kye:Don't forget you were going to get us the definition of a "cop bunker" and while you're at it why don't you just get the definitions for every other conceivable type of bunker and post it?

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Kye:While you're doing the bunker definitions; unless it's really obvious I wouldn't mind some etymology too.

Tom_Egan

The lost art of deception
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
To: TEPaulSpeaking of definitions, I believe I can imagine what a "kick up" is from the context, but could you please define it for me?  Thanks.

TEPaul

The lost art of deception
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Tom Egan:A "kick up" is a rather severe upslope in the rear of a green that slows a fast running ball down and filters it back down the green. "Kick ups" are not in anyway pinnable green space but are tremendous fun to play with approach shots or putts below the pin for laughs (if you try it enough you can sink a putt or chip by backing it into the hole!) Gulph Mills has one on #13 that works but should be restored and enhanced (almost all the old courses have had their original greenspace shrink over time). #18 has a "kick up" on a small portion of the rear of the green and Gil Hanse built a neat one on #11 (par 3) at Inniscrone. As to where the word comes from I'll check back and see if I can find it. We had many Master plan meetings with Gil Hanse and it was used then. I did a lot of design evolution research on Gulph Mills and I might have seen it mentioned in some of the writings of Ross or Stiles that the club luckily kept from 1927 and 1940. The same was true with the so-called "top shot" bunkers we had at Gulph Mills and are gone now. They were just short cross bunkering to grab topped shots from running out to where a good drive would go (Ross obviously didn't want that to happen)But that's a good question; I'll try to find out if these were general terms or just some we started to use, but I think they were mentioned way back.Don't worry Kye Goalby just might be working on a complete glossary of golf terms at this very moment.There are certainly some terms in golf whose etymologies may be unknowable, an example being "dormie". Most people believe it refers to the wrong side and the word's etymology would indicate that since it derives from "to sleep or to die". How did it come to refer to the side that was up and very much alive?

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lost art of deception
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
I must defend one hole of Art Hills design as being very deceptive. It is the 157 yard third at HMB Ocean. It is a long narrow green (3 clubs) nestled between mounds, the front right portion is obscured by a taller mound covered in native grasses. From the tee this green appears very wide an shallow (one club deep). It has a ridge in the rear running toward the tee. As the construction superintendent and owners rep. I saw it from it's conception to completion and through two years of play. The green always confused me until I played it with an architect who taught me how to "see". He showed me how to discern the depth by looking at the support, (bunkering, mounds and swales.)  Without local knowledge, most players are short or long.  
"chief sherpa"

Yancey_Beamer

The lost art of deception
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Cop BunkerOrigin-From English dialect cop="hillock top of a hill"Obsolete. A knoll or bank regarded as a hazard or obstacle.Described in literature as "looming"

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The lost art of deception
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2005, 05:41:08 PM »
I brought up this old thread up to the top again
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark_F

Re:The lost art of deception
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2005, 01:42:25 AM »
I would sure hope no one is better at it than T. Doak.

Here at St Andrews Beach, deception is a byword for the course.  

Many bunkers appear further away than they actually are, or vice versa, and there are a number of greens that have slight knolls or crowns on the front or side that decive you from the fairway or tee as to where exactly the flagstick is.

However, I think they got this feature exactly right.  I would say only five or six holes play like this.  Any more, and it would be rather tiresome.

Another deception is within the greens.  During a day here in December, after I misread yet another green, I was reliably informed by one of Tom's renaissance buddies that I had been 'Doaked', although I preferred my rather less charitable term.

Most of them manage to be both bold and subtle, but they are not that fast you are are fearful of them.  Many appear to break one way when reading, but then the other when you stand over them.  

 

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back