[Ran Morrissett]

This topic originates from another post re: St. Andrews and how much fun/rewarding it is just to watch people play it. By observing the course in different weather conditions and different hole locations, ones appreciation of that course only rises.What then would be the top ten (I know, not another damn list!) courses most rewarding to study. My list in order would be:1. St. Andrews2. National GL of America3. Royal Melbourne (West)4. Pine Valley5. Merion6. Augusta National7. Pinehurst No. 28. Riviera9. Crystal Downs10. North Berwick

[T_MacWood]

Ran    I would concure with every course on your list. The problem is limiting it to just ten. Certainly courses that reflect Colt's genius (Muirfield,S.Forest or Portrush),Tillinghast's park-land strategies(Winged Foot,SF or Somerset Hills),Flynn's flexibilty (Cascades, Shinnecock and Huntingdon V.)or Thompson's malt induced artistry (Jasper,Banff or Cape Breton)would also be worthy of study.When analysing the influences of the great golf architects and their works, you find one common thread, The Old Course. MacK.,Colt,MacD.,Tillinghast,Fowler,Simpson, Park,H.Wilson,Alison,Ross and Park were profoundly influenced by St.Andrews. Ross, Raynor,Flynn, Maxwell,Thomas and Thompson were at the least indirectly influenced by the Old Course. I think it can be argued that StA.is not only the cradle of golf, but also the cradle of great golf architecture.

[John Sessions]

Tom is right - you can't keep it just to ten but if you did, I feel Pebble needs to be in it. The art of small tilted greens and the challenge that they can present are best on display at Pebble - more so than any of the ten you listed.

[Tom_Doak]

Twenty years ago I wrote to Ben Crenshaw to ask him the same question.  The six he recommended:  National, Shinnecock, Merion, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, and Prairie Dunes.  His list still holds up pretty well.

[Gib_Papazian]

(Besides St. Andrews)National GLLahinchCounty DownPrestwickWinged Foot East (green complexes)Garden CityThe Creek ClubCypress Point (Routing plan)Woodhall SpaSwinley ForestHon Mention:Olympic, SF Club, Hoylake, Sunningdale Old

[George_Bahto]

How in the world can we protect these wonderful courses from being tampered with by "people" who don't understand what is written on these textbooks.

[Tom Naccarato]

George,Good point!Right now I'm currently have been spending the day drafting a letter to a green committee on saving a 1920 Max Baer-design that is in the midst of it's final death blow.The club wants to bring in an unknown architect and make the course beautiful by adding lakes and changing a lot of greens complexes to make them more "In tune" with the course. Does this sound familiar at all?Why these club's seem to make these same mistakes every three to seven years is beyond me. The last time they had brought in Ted Robinson where he added his "touch" to four holes which have been devastating. Luckily three of the four are correctable.Luckily there are several members of this green committee that aren't thrilled with this master plan. Sounds a little too high and maybe an exageration) They have asked me to type up a letter and maybe even speak at their next green committee meeting. I have recommended to them that this course needs to be RESTORED and not DESTROYED and have said to them that their efforts would be better served if they were to bring in a Restoration Specialist who can make the course what it once was and not just another course that will not entice new members because it of all the other new public access upper-scale courses that are being built near it.

[Ran Morrissett]

I know of Crenshaw's long standing fondness for Prairie Dunes but I can't honestly see how he would place that ahead of Crystal Downs. Crystal if anything has even better greens and enjoys far superior property. Crenshaw would never admit it but I reckon he and Coore have designed two courses more rewarding to study than Prarie Dunes (David Eger - stay out of this!). I took three lads to Sand Hills for a couple of days and we went to Prairie the day after. Their comment was, "We should have stayed at Sand Hills for a fifth round."

[b. williams]

gib:why select both county down and lahinch (ie what would you learn in general from one and not the other)? is the bunkering that good at woodhall? olmypic club prior to the tree growth i assume? i agree on prestwick - it would be my second course afer st. andrews. the creek has too many average holes  (2,3,4,5,12,17,18) to be "worthy of studying." swinley forest - please tell me more about it.

[T_MacWood]

Ran       I would agree that Crystal Downs is a superior site. However,what Maxwell accomplished at Prarie Dunes on good but not great property is worthy of study.Its greatest asset might be the most overlooked aspect of design, its tees.  

[RWalker]

I would make a list of bad courses worth studying what not to do.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,That is a very interesting point - could you please expand on the tees at Prairie Dunes? Thanks.

[T_MacWood]

Ran      When routing a golf course it appears many designers go about identifying the outstanding natural features of the site to put their greens. Sometimes the nature of those fearures also allow for some outstanding tee sites,other times they do not. At Prarie Dunes Maxwell did a wonderful job of indentifying all the outstanding features of the site to place his beautiful natural appearing greens and also the following hole's tee. Many times creating wonderful vistas. Some examples are the 2nd green and the 3rd tee,4th green and the 5th tee,5th green and the 6th green,8th green and the 9th tee,and the 13th green and the 14th tee.The 11th and 18th are also examples of tees with wonderful vistas.As far the Ryder Cup and the lack of sportsmanship, I personally was not surprised. Starting at the Belfry in 1985 sportmanship has steadily been disintegrating on both sides.

[Gib_Papazian]

In answer to the query by b. williams, the reason County Down and Lahinch are both on the list is that Lahinch to me is an example of what daring and original holes can be created in what are very confining sand dunes set close together.  If we are to compare courses that are similar, County Down could be likened more to the Dunluce (Portrush) as the scale and proportionality of the holes and their hazards are worthy of study just for their grandiose nature.Woodhall Spa is a terrific study in tee shot placement as it is necessary to move the ball between staggered bunkers in the landing area.  The hazards themselves are enormous and deep - an interesting study in psychological terror.  Aesthetically, the blooming heather gives the course much of its texture and color it has a rough-hewn beauty about it.  This is not to say that golf courses should have flowers planted, but only that the synthesis of all the elements at this particular spot is worth a look.  In addition, the flexibility of the course as a par 73 or par 70 give it a different look without resorting to the kind of USGA nonsense we see in the US Open (17th at Olympic for instance).I agree the Creek has some mediocre holes, but #6 is surely one of the best par 4's in golf, and I rather like reverse-Redan holes like #8. #9 through #16 is as good a run as I have played anywhere.  After National, I think I would choose to play there every day if I lived on L.I.Swinley Forest because the greensites fit more gracefully into the terrain than any course I have seen - Colt at his best, even better than Sunningdale if you ask me.  It is also a look at how a "short" course can be made fabulously interesting without resorting to gimmicks.Olympic as a honorable mention (I must qualify this as I am a lifetime member) because it is still the most perfectly objective test of golf I have ever played.  It lacks the ingredient of strategic options on all but a few holes, but I know of no test of golf that metes out both reward and punishment in as equitable a fashion as does the Lake Course.  Zat is why those choices.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom and Gib,Great posts.

[DBE]

Re: David Eger--stay out of thisRan, you're no doubt aware that Perry Maxwell designed and built PD in about 1937.  His work was what are now #'s 1,2,6,7,8,9,10,17 and 18.  For some reason, nephew Perry could not get out of the remaining land nine holes that compare.  Play a match between Perry's holes and the best nine holes of Sand Hills and see how they do.  I've never been to SH, but would like to whenever my G-5 is delivered.How did you like Lost Dunes?  Did you reach the 8th green in two shots?  I played "Far and Sure" this week after a ten year absence.  Top 25 in the world.  The only imperfect thing about it is the second fairway is diagonal to the Raynor (Macdonald?) tee.  Seems that whoever was in charge of the 1979 Sr. Am changed the hole to a par five and built a tee behind the first green.  I guess the club never put the fairway back to line up with the par four tee, even though the USGA tee has long been abandoned and the fairways were regrassed recently with bent.

[cary lichtenstein]

I brought this old thread back up to gather a few more responses, especially any modern courses that should make the list or perhaps,

10 classic worth studying

10 modern worth studying

In the modern, I'd list in no particluar order:

Whistling Straits
Shadow Creek
Sanctuary
Sage Valley
Greywalls
The Quarry at Giants Ridge
Arcadia Bluffs
Cog Hill
TPC Sawgrass
Mayacama
Sand Hills
Friar's Head

It also might be interessting to list 10 courses to study to illustrate what not to do, especially those with some quirky holes that just don't work, good holes turned bad by some committee or amateur architect.

[Sean_A]

Cary

I might add Tobacco Road to this list.

Ciao

Sean

[Dan Herrmann]

How about comparing/contrasting Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, and Pacific Dunes and the nascent Pacific Trails?

[Brian_Ewen]

Notice how the original discussion is on International courses  ? .

And 6 years on , its about America ? .

Without meaning to step on anyones toes , isnt this how the board has changed lately ? .

Sadly IMHO .

Brian

[Anthony_Nysse]

Cary,
  I didn't see Friar's Head on your list......

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Steve Lapper]

Nor Sand Hills...clearly a candidate for Modern Icon

[George Pazin]

Notice how the original discussion is on International courses  ? .

And 6 years on , its about America ? .

Without meaning to step on anyones toes , isnt this how the board has changed lately ? .

Sadly IMHO .

Brian

Brian -

This is definitely somewhat true - I remember when there was more participation from Australia, in particular. But the remedy can only come from those overseas. Lord knows, everyone drools everytime Paul Turner posts one of his hidden gem photo threads.

Please share more of your own opinions, and I promise they won't be ignored.

 

[cary lichtenstein]

Tony and Steve:

Clearly an omission...I went back and modified my post to include them...thanks for pointing those 2 out

Cary

[Mike_Sweeney]

In the modern, I'd list in no particluar order:

Whistling Straits
Shadow Creek
Sanctuary
Sage Valley
Greywalls
The Quarry at Giants Ridge
Arcadia Bluffs
Cog Hill
TPC Sawgrass
Mayacama
Sand Hills
Friar's Head

Cary,

Now that you have moved on, have you thrown Lakota Canyon under the bus?

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