[TEPaul]

The comments in the "Most disappointing Great Holes" got me thinking about hole strategies and overall course strategies. It got me thinking about the extraordinary strategic variety of the Maidstone depending on the wind conditions. I don't know of a course in America that can play so easy without wind and so hard with it. The neat thing is whatever the conditions are every hole is doable somehow, but the strategy might be 180% different from the day before. Specifically I think of the 17th. This hole really has it all and at a crucial time in a match. I have never seen so much visual trickery, even after playing it a hundred times. The green, which is semi-blind across the marsh, pulls you towards it, even when you know in severe wind conditions that you have to drive almost 90% away from it to its perpendicular fairway. The hole is also driveable, although I've never seen it done, I've seen enumerable booming shots that are just a little misdirected and the ball is in the marsh. That is wonderful risk reward from the tee but it is very easy to play safe. From the fairway you never have more than a wedge although from the tee it looks like you have a long way in. The green features and orientation are amazing for risk/reward. Fence and road OB immediately right and behind and marsh left. The diagonal semi boomerang green has a bunker eating into the left side obscuring the a left pin and a narrow safe play tongue on the right side. If that weren't enough Bill Coore tells me this green is Perry Maxwell! The proof of this hole is time and again, even in groups with good players the scores will be 3 to 8 and matches you thought you had or lost will go on to 18 and the ultimate in a match play risk/reward green!  

[Ran Morrissett]

Great post - couldn't agree more.

[John Morrissett]

Tommy--I have come to agree with you.At first, I thought the hole was annoying in that there was no strategic merit in challenging the danger (the marsh) off the tee as the left side provides a  poorer angle of attack.  However, the player has to think and not be fooled by the stereotype of the Cape hole.  The pitch is nervy as you worry about putting out the windshield of a Volvo.

[TEPaul]

John     The quote by Bobby Jones in Geoff's new book (p.16) is the way I feel about Maidstone.      That hole due to where it is in the round is usually part of the discussion of a great match afterwards. All my rounds there by the way have been around or during the Maidstone Bowl for many years so it is all tournament, some stroke qualifying but mostly match play. The match play rounds is when the hole really shows its stuff.       I give a little extra to a hole that you can't see the pin from the tee but that can be seen from somewhere before you get to the tee. Its a little like some card games, if you aren't paying attention to what's being dealt, you aren't doing yourself much good. And you're right about the high risk of trying to drive the green makes the hole a little "annoying", but that is the beauty of it;  In certain match situations the hole just draws you to it (its like a putt with a ten foot break, your eye is still drawn to the hole), although the attempt is really a fake-out. I have seen players get really close to the green and if the pin is somewhere on the right they are going to make birdie; but if the pin is over the bunker on the left and you forgot to look where the pin was coming off  the 1st who wants the shot and you feel like an idiot taking such a risk and you have to hit a twenty yard flip over that bunker! That is when you might nail a Volvo. I love short par 4s and I love all of them at Maidstone; throw in the 14th and the 9th, my favorite hole in the world, and that's why I'm crazy about the Maidstone.

[John Morrissett]

Tom--I couldn't agree with you more about Maidstone -- it's on my short list of favorites.  The 14th is probably my favorite medium-short par three while the 9th is my favorite 9th (better than Yale and Pebble Beach).  One of my most treasured posessions is an Arthur Weaver print of Maidstone from the 14th tee looking across the 13th and down 9 and 10 -- it really captures the place.

[Jeff_Lewis]

....now these were the good old days, what a wonderfully thoughtful and civil discussion.

[Tom Huckaby]

Two brothers and TEPaul agreeing with each other about a great golf course... that proves what?

Sorry Jeff.  I'm one who believes the "good old days" here were highly overrated, and what's going on today remains pretty damn fun.  And I've participated here for a long time.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

If there's one course that is way overrated it's Maidstone IMHO. It has its moments -- the 9th for sure is a grand hole and well worth all the ink it gets, but here is one course that greatly benefits from being "in the hood" with other more noted and celebrated courses.

By the way -- I've heard the predictable argument about how the course can play when the wind is blowing. The same can be said for a good number of other courses as well. For me -- the individual parts of certain holes at Maidstone are enjoyable -- I just don't see the total sum of the entire picture meriting all the fanfare and hoopla the course has garnered over the years. But then again -- what do I know?

[Joel_Stewart]

Madistone is like barbeque for me, I can't resist it.  I have always said that Maidstone is the best summer club in the US.   The beach, pool, activities, membership and fantastic golf is unmatched.

The 17th tee shot:



I've never seen the 17th driven either but with todays equipment I'm sure some of these pros and or kids could drive it.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

It's nice to all that all the rest of the club is so grand.

Given your expertise and personal sampling of courses played -- where would you personally rate Maidstone? Among your top ten? Top 50? Top 100, etc, etc?

One other thing -- can you tell me how you rate the architecture as a classic short course versus others that are rather similar?

Thanks ...

p.s. How do you square the fact that the course has a number of ho-hum / yawn holes?

[George Pazin]

If Tom P loves it and Matt thinks it's overrated, well, it's no wonder it's very close to the top of my personal must see list.

 

[Tommy Williamsen]

The middle holes on the course are strong.  But I agree with Matt that there are a few holes that are less than stunning, especially 1 and 18.  I'm not sure what you do with them, however. I do agree
that it is a great club for the summer.  I could play the course and be happy.

[Joel_Stewart]

Maidstone and Fishers Island might not be the best golf courses but they are the nicest.  I don't want to categorize courses, how do you compare Maidstone to Pine Valley or Augusta to Cypress Point?

That said, Maidstone is one of my top 50 clubs.

[Tom_Doak]

I've heard from a member that Maidstone is considering a new $3 million irrigation system -- makes me shudder to think of it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,
  I agree with you 100%. To me, Maidstone is, without question, the most overrated Top 100 course in Amercia...kind of like Harbour Town, to me. Take away #9, #9, #10 and #14 and You got a glorified Montauk Downs....in fact, I think that I'd take MD over it....just my opinion...

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Mike_Cirba]

I've heard from a member that Maidstone is considering a new $3 million irrigation system -- makes me shudder to think of it.

Perfect.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

I've heard from a member that Maidstone is considering a new $3 million irrigation system -- makes me shudder to think of it.

Perfect.  

Good...now they will have grass.......

[ward peyronnin]

Altho i played it seven years ago in a driving rain this is one of my special courses. The two par threes on the frrnt side both are memorable for different reasons; the first for its short but blind and devilish green surround and the next for it's naked exposure with the Atlantic as your sole frame of reference with little margin again for the swirling winds.

The routing is also masterfully canted to every possible wind direction on successvive holes. Is it overpowering? no. Is it marvelous walk in the dunes? One of my best and the turf is as close to Scottish links as i have played

[jeffwarne]

Ward,
you must've played it in the summer heat in a drought.
Links turf it ain't -except a couple holes.

I happen to love Maidstone-One of my favorite courses.

I love the no irrigation, however I don't begrudge the members or a super to have a sophisticated (for $3 million it better be sophisticated) sytem that can keep the turf on the edge, yet alive.
a sophisticated system in the right hands will allow them to water less and in certain hot spots and keep it as near unirrigated as possible-yet alive
....Unless the members "help"

[Gerry B]

one of my favorite places to play on the planet - pure golf for those who "get it"

some average holes but the great ones are as good as it gets - holes 7-10 might be one of my favorite stretches of holes on the planet

 i love the fact that there is no irrigation like Fishers island - part of the charm

re:17 - the comment re: you can make 3 or an 8 is so true - i was last there in october and did my best karen silkwood  / frosty imitation to blow a match

halfway house is a classic as well

[Sean_A]

I think you lot are debating two separate issues.  Matt is talking strictly about the course and others are on about the course and the club or the experience if you will.  I am always very dubious of people that want to separate the experience of the day from the course as I believe they are all wrapped up into one package like it or not and we are influenced by that package like it or not.

I must say that Maidstone sounds like my kinda place.  I don't mind the odd duff hole if the experience is grand.  How else does one explain the popularity of North Berwick?

Ciao

[Donal Breasail]

i played maidstone in early October and was told that the irragation issue was not up to the club to invest as they were being stopped by the council because of water issues.
I have to say that i was  slightly dissapointed with the opening two and closing two holes on the golf course but on the other hand 9 and 14 are two of my favourite holes anywhere.

[Gary Slatter]

Maidstone is in my top 10 course experiences.  It's the perfect layout for 98% of the golfers.

[Jeff Evagues]

I like Maidstone. It has the best collection of cape holes I've seen along with #8 and #14.  

[Jerry Kluger]

I was just wondering:  With all the praise of Maidstone and how highly people would rank it - where does it stand in their minds when compared with NGLA and Shinnecock?  Frankly, I think Maidstone is fun and the experience is certainly very cool, but overall, I certainly wouldn't put it in the same league as the other two.  

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