News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matt_Ward

Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« on: February 16, 2004, 08:26:16 PM »
I've had a good 19th hole conversation with a few media people regarding their assessment on what is the Garden State's 3rd best course.

Clearly, PV takes the top spot and I've stated that Plainfield takes the silver spot. Few really argue the top two positions with any credible argument.

In the 3rd position I have stated Baltusrol / Lower given the changes made to the course.

However, others have chimed in that Somerset Hills is the 3rd best and a few others have stated Hollywood as well as Metedeconk National (1st & 3rd nines).

I can't elevate Somerset Hills to that high of a level -- Baltusrol Lower still has the qualities of a fine layout albeit one that is sometimes undervalued given its best record in recent major championships.

I wonder how others who know Jersey golf would weigh in on this topic. There's a few dollars riding on it so please be as specific as possible. Thanks!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2004, 08:57:43 PM »
Trump National at Lamington Farm.  ;D
No, wait that's the best course ("blows Pine Valley away" - forthcoming quote from The Donald)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 09:11:02 PM by SPDB »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2004, 09:41:39 PM »
Matt Ward,

Do you believe that Somerset Hills is better then Mountain Ridge, The Knoll, Forsgate, Hollywood. Essex County East, # 2 and # 4 at Montclair, and Ridgewood's East & West ?

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2004, 10:14:27 PM »
Matt,

As a Garden State resident...I agree with your choices.

I would also place Baltusrol/Lower as a third choice.  

Somerset is one of my favorites in NJ, but I think it has been really hurt by technology.  I played in the Compher Cup there last year and a player in my group hit 9 irons into two of the par 5's....BUT...although technology has passed it by, it did hold up to scoring in last year's MET AM.  The greens were firm and VERY fast for qualifying.  The Redan green was almost unplayable at the speeds they had the greens.

I also can't put Metedeconk on the level of Baltusrol.  Metedeconk is difficult, but lacks the variety of the other top courses.

 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 09:34:10 AM by JSlonis »

TEPaul

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2004, 10:40:50 PM »
Jamie:

Regarding hitting 9 irons into par 5s at Somerset Hills, Mcdermott is an aberration first and a player second!  :)

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2004, 11:08:41 PM »
We had this same discussion last year on what the 2nd best course in New Jersey was?

I lived in New Jersey for 6 years and only played Baltusrol twice but can't place it third.  Despite its short length I would have to place Somerset Hills 3rd.  

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2004, 11:17:55 PM »
Where does Baltusrol Upper fit in here?  The same course that supposedly (most of) the membership at Baltusrol prefers?

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2004, 02:18:02 AM »
I like Somerset , and I like Ridgewood .  Mountain Ridge would be pretty awesome if they did some major tree removal. As for worst--Has to be Stone Harbor!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2004, 07:44:20 AM »
Matt,

    Just saw this hanging curve ball and knew you meant for me to take a swing!

    Alhtough we've had this discussion before, I'll go right on the record and declare Somerset Hills EASILY the number 3 NJ course. Why? Because hole for hole, all the others mentioned lack a fraction of the variety of the SH terrain, strategy, routing and architecture. Essentially SH has two vastly different nines.

    The outgoing is as close to an inland links style layout as one can find in the Garden State. It feels silghtly similar to Garden City, but shines on its own merit. Early on, the course gives you a taste of how it taunts and teases by deceptively sloping the first green away from the fairway, rejecting the outright skyball and instead looking for a wise-man's play of bouncing it into the front left side of the green to get anywhere near a front, middle or either-side pin. #2 is quite simply one of the most elegant and best-exampled Redan's in existence today! #3 is a straight-forward hole with a very "Raynoresque" elevated green that posesses multiple and subtle humps and rolls.
      Four is undenialbly a strong four par. During last year's Met. Am, the area's best could do average no better than 4.6 over 4 days. The green is slick and severly canted back to front and canted left to right a slight bit. Five is marvelous short four par that gives the player two seperate shot decisions;1) Drive it long up the left and look for a SW into a small green with a "dead elephant" in its right corner; or 2) lay up with an iron/3W and look to make par or worse. (Does Baltusrol have a hole like this?) Six is a bending, but short 5 par that has a few interesting features(the racetrack trough), but does fall short of challenging some of the state's better 5's. Seven is an all-world befuddling four par that gives a long driver (again the better am's failed to get near par ,on average,) fits with a narrowing and canted landing area that chokes the fairway. The second shot is equally interesting, as the green slants hard right-to-left and back-to-front. Baltusrol Lower's greens don't present these types of issues nearly as frequently!
     Eight is a strong and long (221 uphill) three-par that has a subtle, but nasty green shouldered by humps and hazards. Nine, the other five par on the front, is not a great hole, but presents its own challenges with a sahara-style driving bunker and small, well-protected green.

    The back is sheer Tillinghast parkland with features that totally differentiate it from other Tilly classics. 10, like SH's other five pars is again not a tough or long hole and IMHO should be permanently made a long four. 11 is regularly recognized (even by Matt, et.al.) as one of the BEST four's around. It's emphasis on a well-placed tee shot and a TESTING approach to another canted, elevated, slanted and multi-tiered green...TOUGH. 12 is simply a marvelous short and cagey one shotter over the pond with another sublte, but canted green. Where else in NJ does this variety exist?

    13 and 14 with their blind tee shots and a marvelous biarritz green aren't long, but are testy. 15 is often considered another "signature" hole with its sloping blind tee shot and well protected, humped and bumped green. 16 is another wonderful medium length three with very difficultly slanted and slick green.

     17 is not a great hole...it is short and mostly feels squuezed in. 18 is likewise short, but has one of the more complicated green complexes on the course. It is not the greatest finishing holes, but it does make any match that comes down to the wire play their best to walk away with a win.

      Bottom line: Baltusrol Lower and Metedeconk are undenialbly longer and resultingly, tougher course to score on. Forsgate, Mountain Ridge, Essex, Montclair & Ridgewood are all wonderful courses with some great features. Baltusrol Upper and Hollywood are perhaps the only courses that hole-for-hole gives SH a run for its variety, style and unique playability. Forsgate has some of this, but many holes lack the elevation and greens complexity (and subtlety) that define SH and make it so unique, and great fun to play!

     It owns the 3rd place slot for exactly those reasons. If length is final determinator then, of course, SH might fall lower. But as we here at GCA adore the NGLA's, the Fisher Island's, the Merions, CPC, et. al. then we must give SH its due and accord it the recognition that comes with great architecture, style and playability.....categories sorely missing at Baltusrol Lower.

     It is a natural par 70 and it's fives definitely lack some of the "meat and muscle" that Matt and Jaimie may like, but nearly every other hole tests every good player with ANY club in their hand. Any player hitting 9 irons into the fives (other than going down the first fairway to approach the 9th) is more freak than the norm!

   I'm done!

   
« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 07:46:06 AM by slapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

munson

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2004, 07:55:21 AM »
I've only had the opportunity to play Baltusrol, both upper and lower, in NJ. That said, both are terrific in their own way. Variety on upper, length on lower-- I can understand either being on a Top 3 or Top 5.

TEPaul

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2004, 08:15:25 AM »
I just haven't played enough of the candidates in New Jersey to give this one an informed opinion but in the State of Florida I would categorically say that at NO TIME should Fernandina Beach Municipal EVER be ranked LOWER than 3rd in the State!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2004, 08:46:04 AM »
Hidden Creek ;D
Mr Hurricane

klangone

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2004, 09:31:39 AM »
If Somerset Hills is not in the top 3.......there is a big problem.  Pine Valley is obviously in a class of its own.......but Plainfield and SHills are dead even in my opinion.  My guess would be that Metedeconk and Due Process would be in a top 5 list.  I do love Hollywood too.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2004, 09:44:01 AM »
Tom,

You are very correct, Mike does hit some freakishly long tee shots.


klangone,
I can't see Metedeconk in the top 5.  I don't think it is on the same level with:

Plainfield
Somerset Hills
Baltusrol Upper
Ridgewood
Hollywood

Matt,

There will be strong support for Somerset Hills on this website because of the general admiration for shorter, quirkier, courses.  For Tillinghast in NJ, as much as I like Somerset, I prefer Ridgewood CC more.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 09:54:22 AM by JSlonis »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2004, 09:50:00 AM »
Haven't played Somerset Hills, unfortunately, but I'd have no problem listing Baltusrol Lower or Hollywood as the 3rd best course in NJ.  

I suspect that a spruced up Knoll would challenge as well, for my tastes.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2004, 09:52:49 AM »
Shivas,

Aren't the Due Process members REQUIRED to wear their hats in the clubhouse?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

NAF

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2004, 09:56:49 AM »
Matt,

Do you reckon Metedeconck is actually underrated in NJ?  Is it a case of Roger Rulewich does good?  I really enjoy playing the course especially the 1st/3rd nines and the 27th hole. I think Metedeconck has really good par 5s and par 4s but some of the worst par 3s I've seen..Very mundane and repetitive one shotters and that detracts from the course. Still, I like the way Rulewich routed the course through the rolling property and his bunker style is actually quite attractive given their maintenance practices.  Holes bend and have strategic bunkering etc.  I'm hard pressed to see after Metedeconck how Yale was built with such poor bunker shaping etc.

I'd give the course a Doak 6 and it just fits in under 70 miles from Manhattan so I'm always accepting when invited.

What are your thoughts?

What do you reckon Alpine will be with the right bunker restoration and regained greens plus the 500 trees we'll have down.. People are describing the course who've seen it as BARREN (the front 9) versus the bowling alley it was..

TEPaul

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2004, 09:57:23 AM »
"Tom,
You are very correct, Mike does hit some freakishly long tee shots."

Jamie:

He hits some freakishly long SWs too. He was my pick to win the Crump last year but some shots which were a bit too pure and too long sort of did him in. Probably 99.9% of golfers when they miss shots are too short but for Mcdermott when he misses something it seems to go too far. An interesting problem to have indeed!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2004, 09:58:46 AM »
Noel;

Fully concur with your assessment of Metedeconk...a Doak 6 and some excellent par fives.

Does Rulewich have an evil twin working at Yale??  ::) :o

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2004, 04:36:42 PM »
   Matt,

My  Jersey   preferences

   1 Pine   Valley
   2 Plainfield
   3 Forsgate
   4 Somerset
   5 Baltusrol   Upper

will supply  details  later  cause...............

I  am  running off to  meet  Scarlet  Johannsen in a few  hours


       Mark



Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2004, 04:42:34 PM »
I competed in the Met Open at Metedeconk last year and was rather disappointed with the course.  I was hearing all kinds of things about how great it was and then played a golf course that resembled the trench on the Death Star.  Every single hole was lined with extremely dense trees where there was no hope of any recovery other than chipping sideways to the fairway.

While the course was on a great piece of property, had an unbelievable practice facility, and a great staff, I left the place feeling like I just participated in a hunger strike.


Jeff F.


P.S.  AND I MADE THE CUT!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 04:47:50 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Matt_Ward

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2004, 06:14:08 PM »
Noel:

I don't like to speculate on how courses will be assessed by me until the work is done and until you see how things have progressed / re: Alpine.

The course is certainly underrated and with the improvements coming down the line it's possible (but not definite) that it's overall standing will rise. But cracking the state's top 15 is no E-Z chore IMHO. Very few people ever give adequate acknowledgement on a host of other candidates -- e.g. Essex County, Mountain Ridge, Forsgate, Hollywood, etc, etc.

Clearly, when the green speeds are up at Alpine I believe a strong case can be made that the demands are no less than what you find at Somerset Hills. People just don't know much about Alpine for a fair comparison to take place. Of course -- after they four-putt the 10th hole they may change their tune!

When the work is done it will be interesting to see how a restored 2nd hole -- the elimination of countless trees -- and the upgrading of bunkers (ala Tillinghast style) will enhance the overall reputation of the course.

Just keep in mind -- the work is still in motion yet.

Matt_Ward

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2004, 06:42:54 PM »
Pat:

To answer you question let me first say that I have not played Mountain Ridge since work was carried out -- I believe it was done by Ron Prichard.

I have always been a big fan of Montclair -- how many courses can boast a nine by Donald Ross (#2) and one by Charles Banks (#4)? The greens are well done and for a course to be slightly more than 6,500 yards is a testament to its design quality because very few real low scores are ever shot there.

I also agree that Essex County has long been ignored by those who should know better. Hats off to George Bahto for a stellar job in bringing back to life a layout that really needed the kind of TLC that only George could provide. Essex County does still have two weak holes at the outset -- although the 2nd has been upgraded a good bit now -- but the rest of the course simply keeps elevating itself as you move through the entire layout. In addition, as you well know, the totality of the back nine is simply first rate -- likely only the back nines at PV and Plainfield are beyond it.

I also believe Forsgate gets little attention because the course, until recently, was for the most part forgotten. The combination of holes is quite good -- the quartet of par-3's is outstanding and the back-to-back par-5's at the 8th and 9th holes is no less, in fact -- may be greater, than the closing duo you find at Baltusrol Lower.

slapper:

Regarding Baltusrol Lower -- when was the last time you played the course?

A few other things to mention -- there are really no par-5's of quality at Somerset Hills. Yes, it does possess a number of interesting greens, however, there are quite a few pedestrian holes that really don't have the architectural heft you outlined.

Need some examples? What about the lame ending hole -- I mean the hole at Somerset Hills makes the finale at Cypress look like a real tester! You also seem to forget the snooze downhill par-4 17th. I really like the first two holes but the 3rd is simply a let down.

Also -- the par-3 12th is a fine hole but when everyone gushes about it I have to wonder have they played the superb quartet of par-3's at the Banks Course at Forsgate -- I mean "short" -- the par-3 12th at Forsgate is a superb design with it's stunning horseshoe designed putting surface. When the pin is placed directly behind the horseshoe the probabilty of getting close takes a jeweler's touch to pull off.

Somerset Hills could use a gentle tweaking because while there are some grand holes -- the 2nd, 8th and 11th come quickly to mind -- there are also a number holes that simply lay there and don't do much for me.

Is it a top ten course in NJ? I think there are plenty of contenders who could garner such a position and I think Somerset Hills has benefited from a number of people who have come to the area and played it without visiting the other stellar courses that are here.

Baltusrol Lower has indeed been improved -- with time short now I'll be glad to post additional comments on the Lower. I'm sure that Mark Kuhns -- the superintendent at the facility -- will address comments during our get together on the 28th.

P.S. The Upper would make my top ten in the Garden State!

JohnV

Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2004, 06:45:02 PM »
I've always heard that La Moye was the best, followed by Royal Jersey.  After that I guess I'd have to say that Les Mielles looks better than St. Clements which is only 9 holes and 2244 yards.  Oh, you meant New Jersey.  Never Mind! ;D

Did any place so small ever give more to golf than the Isle of Jersey.  Harry Vardon, Ted Ray, and Tom Vardon along with the Jersey shirt which has evolved into the polo shirt and finally the golf shirt.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jersey's 3rd best course ?
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2004, 06:48:06 PM »
I don't really rank courses in numerical order but I will tell you this that Galloway National is an 8 and should not be left out of the frey!  

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back