[Mike Hendren]

Tom McWood correctly called me to task for generalizing about Nicklaus' inability to create great short holes in the Donald Ross DioDiu thread.  What then, are some of Nicklaus' best short holes (say, under 170) and what makes them great?  Photographic support is not only permissible, but requested for those of us who remain in the legion of the great unwashed.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

[Greg Holland]

Wouldn't Nicklaus supporters argue:

Cabo Del Sol, 17
Pebble Beach 5

What about Muirfield Village?

[cary lichtenstein]

There are 2 fine short par 4 holes at The Ritz in Jupiter, 15 and 16

[Carlyle Rood]

Wouldn't Nicklaus supporters argue:
Cabo Del Sol, 17
Pebble Beach 5

I enjoyed it.  I've only played it once.  I never played Pebble before the change.  This must have been a hell of a place for a private home.

[NCFAN]

I am fond of all the par threes at Pinehurst National, with #9 and #17 being my favorite, and at Governor's Club in Chapel Hill, I like #4, #12 in particular.
These are just in NC.
I also quite like #4 and #14 at Taberna designed by his long time design associate Jim Lipe.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I always liked playing the 18th at Geronimo at Desert Mountain- over a canyon to 2 tiered green. I forget the yardage.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Bear Creek #6 is an excellent version of ANGC #12.  Hopefully, someone has pictures.  Holes like this one always made me think that Jack had the potential to create great courses.  

[ForkaB]

14 at Pasadera, 200+ yards from mountain peak to mountain peak is a lot of fun (if you survive the walk up there).  I don't think that Jack found this hole (previous designers did) but he build it pretty well, with an interesting green that fits the challenges of the tee shot.  Best of all, it's all downhill (walking wise) from there!

[James Edwards]

The picture I wanted to post wasn't available on the website, but this is fairly typical of the Nicklaus designs for par 3's on the London Club in England.



Extremely tough, all carry affairs.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

The 14th at Pasadera? As usual you come out with the outrageous just to get a rise from us. I see no redeeming features on this hole. From over two hundred yards one has to clear a ravine and if short, a lost ball. If long by a few yards there is a severe slope down the hill with out of bounds
not far from the green. A small bail out area left. Standing on the tee the green looks like one of those infinity pools one sees at expensive resorts.

In the NorCAl Seniors held there a couple of years ago, this was the hole that resembled NASCAR pile up. I don't think there was a birdie there all day and very few pars.

[ForkaB]

Bob

You don't have to play the hole from the tips.  There is a "forward" tee about 60 degrees to the left, which plays about 170, and gives you an interesting look at the green.

And, you and I are getting old enough where we might just be beginning to consider a "Moriarty" bail out from the back tees at 16 CPC.   Does that make it a bad hole just because "we" might not be able to make the carry?  I think not.....

[THuckaby2]

14 at Pasadera, 200+ yards from mountain peak to mountain peak is a lot of fun (if you survive the walk up there).  I don't think that Jack found this hole (previous designers did) but he build it pretty well, with an interesting green that fits the challenges of the tee shot.  Best of all, it's all downhill (walking wise) from there!

This is the very golf hole I had in mind when giving Scott B. crap yesterday about being a militant walker.  To walk up to that tee requires a devotion to walking that is so beyond sanity, well... it remains my good example.  Rich, I assume you also walked from 9 to 10 at Wente Vineyards?  

To me these are both instances of when someone tells me they walked, I have to ask "why"?  Because each course is pretty walkable outside of this one hole.  Rich, please tell me that if someone was there to give you a ride up (like at Wente), you'd take it.

As for the golf hole itself, it is a pretty damn thrilling shot from that back tee... that green is as hard to hold as it is to hit.  I sure wouldn't want every golf hole like this, but it is a good ball-buster.  Hmmm... make it about 60 yards longer and we might have shivas' dream hole!  And Rich is right - from the 170 tees, there is no carry and it's still a thrilling shot, with all the trouble now right, left and long... still a very tough green to hit and hold from that tee....

TH

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Since the NorCal contingent is so involved, I am surprised that no one mentioned 14 at Mayacama. Measuring 159 yards and playing uphill, I think this is a very good hole. One of the few uphill par threes I have seen Nicklaus Design build and it plays well too. The front bunker is threatening and forces many golfers to bail out to the right side of the green, which cannot be said of too many holes with short iron in your hand.
My picture of the hole is fairly poor, but I will post it anyway.

[JSlonis]

One of the first holes that come to mind would also fit on the thread for "shallow greens"...

#12 at Muirfield Village.

[THuckaby2]

Great call Ben - hell yes, fantastic golf hole.  The other par 3's there aren't too shabby either.

Note that pic is from the side... as Ben says the shot is quite uphill and is more scary than a 150 yard shot has any right to be!

TH

[JWL]

Rich and Tom

Just a little background information regarding #14 at Pasadera for you.
You guys are exactly correct that the original back tee on the hole was to play at about 170 yards with the ravine on the right and the green sloped and pitched to take the shot to the back right pin positions around the bunker.  However, the wind coming over the top of the ridge behind the hole is sometime so strong, that for good players, the shot may only be a 9 iron or even pitching wedge.  So Jack, as he often does, went back to the far ridge for a back tee, with the explanation that this tee should ONLY be used by professionals or top amatuers in some kind of event and not every round in a tournament, and only when the weather conditions allowed.   The primary play was always to be from the 170 yd tee complex further left.   The back tee shot, while 200 yds and level, ususally requires something between a 4-7 iron depending on the wind.   I hit a 5 iron on the green with a nice breeze behind me when I last played the hole.
While the vast majority of the golf course routing was "inherited", this particular hole was not located in this area.  The area where the hole was on the original routing was practically unbuildable and further away from the 15th connection.  Sorry about the walk/ride up the hill.  I had no choice in the matter.   Jack and I did find the ridlgelines that #14 plays to/from and it did produce a dramatic looking golf hole.  I'll try to find an appropriate picture, but even if I do, I don't know if I can get it posted.
  Also the houses and road on the left of #15 are a great disappointment to me also, because that had the makings of an exciting hole with the punch bowl green going away from play.
Anyway, I read your post with interest, and just wanted to add a little background for you.
Cheers!

[Jeff Fortson]

I agree with RMD.

#6 at Beer Creek in Murrieta, CA is one of the best short par 3's I've ever played.  I think it is 110 yards from the tips.  


Jeff F.

[THuckaby2]

JWL:

Thank you very much!  There's been discussion here today about learning on this site, and well, if there's a better instance of such than what you just posted than I want to see it for sure.  Insight like this surely is what this discussion group is about at its best.

Re the hole in question, well... I kinda like that back tee, don't get me wrong!  But I can see it should be reserved only for the strong players - not that I'm all that strong myself, but absent any wind last time I was there it took a lot of club to get over, so I was happy to play the up tee when we went around for a third nine later!

As for the walk/ride, hell I have zero problem with it - I took a cart each time there.  You can hopefully understand though why I choose to use that hole as an example of what walkers will do if they are crazy, er I mean, devoted enough.  

[Mike Hendren]

Gentlemen,

I believe the jury is still out.   No evidence has been presented that suggests Nicklaus could touch:



or


or


or


Pics of the 4th at Holston Hills and 5th(+1) at Memphis CC would be better evidence.  

Step it up, guys.

Mike

[Chris_Clouser]

Mike,

I know this will sound sacreligious, but aside from the bottom photo, all of those Ross holes look for the lack of a better term pedestrian.  They look like something I can find on just about any course in my local area (once the snow melts).  Maybe it's the angle of the photo or something, but they just look like he went out said here's a good spot for a green and built it up and then surrounded it with the same bunker configuration.  At least with photo three there is really something happening with the terrain.  On hole two I wonder why he didn't do something more with the water if it is a short hole and if that was there when Ross designed it.

I'm not saying that Nicklaus is a great par three designer.  For example at his new course here in Noblesville, Sagamore.  He has four par threes on the course.  Three of them are exactly alike or mirror images of each other.  The fourth one though that doesn't involve water is the best of the bunch.  It wouldn't qualify here as it is almost 200 yards long, but is an excellent hole.  I just wish I could get a good photo of it to post.

 

[Mike Hendren]

Chris,

Your comments are precisely what I hoped to elicit with this thread and I do not disagree at all.  I'm trying to learn, not advocate of incite.  Your first and second sentences do underscore the genius of Ross in my opinion.  Simple complexity - or if you prefer - complex simplicity.  

No doubt Jack would have disco'd the 12th at Beverly by utilizing the pond.  In doing do, he would have likely ruined the fantastic 11th.  All this is moot, of course, since he would never have routed the 10th into the corner of the property to set up the balance of the fantastic back nine there.  

Ironically there is a similar pond at the short 4th at Holston Hills that Ross eschewed.  

Again, the holes pictured are hardly Ross' finest.  They're merely just the few I've played.  

Mike

[Lou_Duran]

The waterfall hole at The Hills CC (Lakeway, TX) is a great mid-length par 3, with a relatively shallow green, and a water feature that fits that part of the Hill Country.

#12 at MV is another one, though the green is not really all that shallow; more diagonal, and not nearly as scary as it inspiration, ANGC's #12.

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