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Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2004, 04:33:37 AM »
The course is 6825 par 71- so right there it plays longer b/c of the par. Also there are a number of short holes such as 7,8,15,18 which puts a lot of the distance on the other 14 holes which play long as hell when it is wet.  Other than in late summer, the course dosent have the same firmness of the ground as they do on many newer courses where there is superior dranage. Dont forget the fact that the heavy sea air makes it play longer still- it really does feel like 7700 some days!

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2004, 09:24:32 AM »
Thanks, Evan.  That is the point I've been trying to get across to these gents...

So its exciting that with the tree clearing things ought to firm up.  It gives us short-knockers a chance, and makes the big hitters think a lot more as all of a sudden going through fairways and off the hills becomes more of an issue.  However it was before, it's gonna be better now!

A_Clay_Man

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2004, 09:45:46 AM »
I wonder if the greens are designed for the firmer and faster conditions?

I only saw the course once (didn't golf) at The open in '98. I seem to recall very small greens. Somebody correct me, please?

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2004, 10:01:40 AM »
That's a good question, Adam. I really don't know and man I have said way too much about a course that we have a lot better experts than me on (members!) anyway.  I'd guess they work just fine in firm and fast, though they are kinda small in general... But that's just guessing and no more of that for me!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 10:02:10 AM by Tom Huckaby »

JakaB

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2004, 10:34:07 AM »
Huck,

Could you be anymore of a big pussy...firm up a 6800 yd course so it doesn't play so looooong and now the greens are to small...If I lived in San Fran and my daughter brought you home for dinner..there would be no guessing about it...If my son brought you home I wouldn't be surprised.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 10:45:21 AM by JakaB »

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2004, 10:45:16 AM »
I am just a big pussy, JakaB - you saw it in person.  ;D

The course played far longer that it should, it created situations it never should have, and to me, was more work than fun.  We all have our own thresholds in this game.  Hey, in reality I am far from the pussy you imagine - I can dig a tough course as much as the next man - hell I love Carnoustie (though Rich is insane to call it the best course in the world), my favorite course in the entire freakin' Bay Area was Bayonet - and it made OClub look like a pitch and putt - the list goes on.  My thing about OClub WAS (not IS, note the difference) that it wasn't MEANT to be like that... it was "goofy-tough"... "tricked-up" tough... and while that also sure as hell does describe the old Bayonet, I just expected more from a course like OClub with all that history... I also saw too many pictures of what the course once looked like...

So a pussy I remain, for wanting to play a course like it was meant to be, for holding a vaunted venue to high standards.

Long live the pussies!!!

 ;D

ps - gotta love the revised version of your insult!  Well done.  But do understand I never said the greens were TOO small.  Does that get me a dater with your daughter?   ;)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 10:52:09 AM by Tom Huckaby »

JakaB

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2004, 11:27:02 AM »
Why a pussy you may ask...You have some members of without question one of the top ten USGA Championship venues in the country come on here and let us know about some minor tweaking the course is undergoing to make it even greater...the politics of the tweak may not be minor but the tweak is...and what do the pussies do but...1. Go to some revisionist history about the course playing too long because it was wet when they were there...and then worst of all question the legitimacy of the green complexes.  I'm sorry because I know I may have overreacted but like the little man in the canoe...I just expect too much.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 11:28:15 AM by JakaB »

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2004, 11:38:49 AM »
Well now I don't get that at all, my good man.

All I did was applaud them for their efforts, and make one comment that was intended as fairly off the cuff - that is that the course AS IT USED TO BE was more fun than work for me.  Good lord am I FAR FAR FAR from alone in that sentiment, btw, but I'll take the heat.  And wet "when I was there"?  How clearly can I make it that I've been there a lot, in all four seasons, and generally it was ALWAYS wet... in the middle of summer with no rain for months, it was still wet.  So knock it off with me basing this on "just when I was there"... Yes, that is technically true, I did base it on my experience at the course, but this experience did not just come one wet time.

I also made no comment about the green complexes other than agree with others that they are kinda small.  I said they would work for firm and fast.  I SURE AS HELL DID NOT "question the legitimacy of the green complexes" - jeez man can you read?  I said they'd work either way.. they are pretty freakin' great....

And for this I am branded a pussy?

Well if so, I wear the badge with honor.

BTW, who here is basing his thoughts based on one time, when he was there?

PUSSY HUCKABY
(and now verging on pissed off Huckaby.  But I refuse to stoop to that - I remain the happy guy as always  - because I know how you work!)
 ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 11:40:35 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2004, 11:39:55 AM »
Is jaka being righteously indignant? I love it! ! ! ! !

I never questioned the legitiamcy of the green complexes, I questioned ( you know, as to learn) what was their Ideal meld.


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2004, 06:30:34 PM »
I wonder if the greens are designed for the firmer and faster conditions?

I only saw the course once (didn't golf) at The open in '98. I seem to recall very small greens. Somebody correct me, please?

I wanted to bring this one back to the top to see if anyone can answer Adam's question.

I am going to answer no ...

A few of the greens play firm (and they accept a ground game approach) regardless of the conditions (except heavy periods of rain ...) ... I'm thinking 1, 3, 5, 9, 10, 12 ... while others are down right nasty with harder, firmer conditions, with 18 during the last Open a prime example ...

Thoughts?  Objections?  Joel, Gib, Kevin?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2004, 07:07:37 PM »
Mike Benham-

The 18th green was flattened out a bit after the last US Open, which will make it more puttable under USGA tournament conditions.

The unfortunate by-product is that now the green is far less challenging for normal member play/green speeds.  The challenge of the 18th hole was getting down in two if you were above the cup, especially if you had to chip from the back fringe/rough.

With the slope of the green reduced, it is much, much easier than it used to be, which I think is a shame.

DT  
 

Gib_Papazian

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2004, 02:19:55 AM »
JakaB . . . . er . . Barney,

This topic has been covered fairly well already, even though I deleted a long post about specific modifications and suggestions because I did not want to provide any grist for the rumor-mill at our beloved O-Club.

I'd be happy to send it off for your opinion of my "pussyosity" in supporting these changes.

Let me just state that the Lake Course is another one of those storied venues ruined by over-irrigation and the brainless "green-is-good" mentality.

Because the course is all poa, our ex-Super used to flood the course every few days in order to encourage deeper root growth. He was the first to admit that the course was too wet, but at the time there was a regime in power that did not buy into the prevailing Treehouse opinions. I do not blame him, especially with a couple kids in college . . .

You cannot reason with people afflicted with power-maddness. Finally, we have a guy in charge with the political acumen to navigate us past the Boo-birds.      

I believe that the Lake Course will be a far more difficult test -and play truer to its architectural design intent - when we have dry fairways and firm putting surfaces.

The other problem - and Huckster is right about you catching it on a perfect day - is we never seem to get consistent density on our fairways. At least half the year, we are playing on sparse poa and thatchy mud. Personally, I am sick of trying to hit the ball off of glop.

Tree removal and some air circulation will not only dry out the fairways, but give us a far superior stand - and one that will not turn to mush at the first rain. The course played firmer when I was a kid and then gradually got more and more overgrown with sacrosanct trees that hung like vultures over our putting surfaces . . . drip drip drip drip.

By contrast, the (new) Ocean Course - like it or not - drains well. Because it is on the windward side of the hill, it is in better shape than the Lake through the wet months and beyond.

And as for your snotty remark about my ball flight (and you may as well make fun of my penis size), in my youth I played most of my golf on the Ocean Course, Crystal Springs and San Mateo Muni. All three of these are notoriously windy.

So, that partially explains those skull shots I play - that and an awful swing . . . . However, I am happy to report after basically abandoning the game 18 months ago, my case of the Sergio's is all but gone. I can't hit my ass with both hands anymore, but at least my playing partners have quit wondering if I've been snorting *Peruvian tap dancing powder.*

But back to the Lake Course:    

The best example I can give is the weeks leading up to the pair of PGA Tour Champonships we had (I think) in 93 and 94(?). The golf course had rough, but the fairways were firm and fast. All the little humps, bumps and swales suddenly  came into play. You had to think about every single shot because nothing would stop the ball if you picked the wrong line.

I never had more fun in my life on that golf course. It was literally a joy to play and I was out there every afternoon. The beauty was that I found it necessary to invent shots all around the golf course - similar to playing in Scotland.

I remember pulling out a 6-iron on #10 and watching the ball bound over the green almost to the 11th tee. After that, it was a 5-iron bump shot designed to land 30 yards in front the green. Watching it scamper along the ground and onto the putting surface was a thing of beauty.

Another example that comes to mind is #9. Nobody seems notice, but there is a wonderful little knob jutting out from the front of the putting surface on the upslope of a 4-foot swale. Depending on the angle in the fairway, it was almost like a mini-Biarritz approach with the addition of this nose that could be used to nudge the ball one direction or another.

The key here is that the Lake Course has so much more personality when you highlight its linksy landforms - instead of hiding them under a blanket of soaking wet mudgrass.

P.S. When you coming out Barney? We can bring Huckster and see how long it takes the Leprechaun to strangle you. The over & under is 11 holes. . . . good thing you are in Indiana and out of striking distance.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 10:16:20 AM by Gib_Papazian »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2004, 07:49:27 AM »
Quote
sacrosanct trees that hung like vultures over our putting surfaces . . . drip drip drip drip

Another poignant picture from the words of the best damn writer who visits this site!  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2004, 10:14:09 AM »
Gib,

I'd amend your article # 1 to read, "original or intended", rather then "existing" tree line.

All too often trees planted by committees, long after the architect designed the course, have altered the lines of play, the architectural intent and strategic play of the hole.

Hence, I feel that existing tree lines must be reviewed to determine if they are the work of, committees come lately, or the original architectural plan.

If they are the work of committees, and are in conflict with the architectural intent, then the rough lines must not come into conformance with the existing tree liine, rather, the existing tree line should be altered to conform to the original architectural intent.

Your item # 1 would establish permanance in a flawed tree line, my suggestion would seek to correct it.

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2004, 10:27:55 AM »
Great stuff Gib - thanks!  Man I can only imagine how cool the course must have been in that halcyon time you describe... anything that brings that back, and makes it more normal status, has to be encouraged.  I am really excited to read all this.

Now regarding:


P.S. When you coming out Barney? We can bring Huckster and see how long it takes the Leprechaun to strangle you. The over & under is 11 holes. . . . good thing you are in Indiana and out of striking distance.  ;D

hey, as the great man once said, I'm a lover, not a fighter.   ;D
JakaB is always gonna be OK by me.  If he calls me a pussy, it makes me re-examine my manhood (and if you take that as a pun, well... how bad of a thing is that?).  ;D  I think of it as an honor.  Let's just say I would have liked to have seen him play the course on one of those thatchy/muddy days that used to be so common, though.   ;D ;D

JakaB

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2004, 01:39:35 PM »
     

I believe that the Lake Course will be a far more difficult test -and play truer to its architectural design intent - when we have dry fairways and firm putting surfaces.


Thank you...Huck wouldn't believe me when I tried to tell him this fact...see post 16 ps. 1.0...he thinks an extra fifty yards makes up for whatever bad angle the great, great architecture may provide a naive strategist....but like most other pussies in my life he just doesn't get it...at least not on a regular basis.

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2004, 01:44:16 PM »
Hey wait a second - what I meant is it's not gonna be tougher FOR ME (and many more like me)... man we need all those yards, to the extent that it negates all the rest... give us the extra yards and the rest doesn't matter.

For big hitters and truly good players, heck yeah, I can see that the course will play tougher big time!

So I UNDERSTAND the strategy.  I get how this works.  It just doesn't apply to my fairly unique situation - a decent player who doesn't hit the ball all that far* - and it also doesn't apply to the many who hit the ball even shorter than I do.  We need the yards, man.  Dry things up and that trumps everything else.

TH

*Which of course is another definition for "pussy", but hey, as I say I wear that as a badge of honor.


JakaB

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2004, 02:05:41 PM »


ps - as for reverse canter of fairways being easier in a slog, I don't agree with that either - give me 50 more yards and I'll take the worse angle in, every time, on those holes. Remember we are talking LONG golf holes... the absence of roll takes away so much distance that to me it trumps any gain one gets from the ball staying put.


Tom,

Is there any example in golf where the formula (easier for Huck = good for golf)  does not ring true in your world...can you name an architectural feature where (harder for Huck = bad for the game)....I'm at a loss.  

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2004, 02:14:31 PM »
I never advocated that formula.  What's good or bad for golf remains VERY difficult for me to quantify.

I do think I know what's good for me, and players like me, however.  Firming things up at Olympic is wonderful news for us short hitters.  It's also great news for those who like strategy/fun over test of golf in general, even though for a small part of the golf population the test of golfer becomes more strident.

Harder for Huck = Bad for the Game?  Easy.  300 yard par 3's.

But I think you wanted me to take it the other way... Harder for Huck = GOOD for the game... Well... I am pretty close to joe average golfer in skill... and I do love the game more than just about anyone on the planet... I do like to have a chance at success, and I believe most people do... so... I'm gonna have to punt and fall back on I really don't know what "good for the game" or "bad for the game" means for sure.  I do believe that MacKenzie's maxim of the most pleasurable excitement for the most people is a good one to follow though, and so it makes it tough for me to come up with an example for you.  

Just do understand that I don't base this on ME, per se... but I am trying to guess at the what would be good for the "most people" and as I say I do believe I am a good example to start with there, anyway.

TH


JakaB

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2004, 02:23:09 PM »
Huck,

Have you found the Holy Grail at Olympic...the very thing we have all wanted to shove down the throat of Matt Ward and Shivas...where a given set up becomes easier for the talentless while at the exact same time becoming harder for the talented...once you start us sliding down that slippery fairway can we tweak the conditions to a point where degree of talent becomes moot and we have architectural utopia.  Do you really believe what you are saying.

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2004, 02:23:31 PM »
AHA!  Got one.

Wonderful right to left dogleg holes featuring brilliant design, calling for strategic choices to be made.  Those are always going to be good for the game, and they are worse than drinking acid for the health of my game.  Me no good at right to left.

Yahooooo!

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2004, 02:27:52 PM »
Huck,

Have you found the Holy Grail at Olympic...the very thing we have all wanted to shove down the throat of Matt Ward and Shivas...where a given set up becomes easier for the talentless while at the exact same time becoming harder for the talented...once you start us sliding down that slippery fairway can we tweak the conditions to a point where degree of talent becomes moot and we have architectural utopia.  Do you really believe what you are saying.

That ain't my holy grail, I'm no part of any crusade.   ;D

But this is an interesting thought.  I believe we do have a situation here where the course is going to be more doable for the shorter hitter (ok, call us talentless) and harder for the longer hitter (who I refuse to call more talented, btw).  ;)

I've long advocated that the perfect course would have a high course rating and low slope.  Damn, if we do this right in the re-rate (and we're really gonna have to try hard, because the system as it's set up has a hard time with things like firmness and fastness), well....

OClub Lake just might turn out to be darn close to the perfect golf course, and evidence of this will be the high course rating and low slope.

Yes JakaB, I believe in challenging those who want to be challenged, and challenging but giving a chance to those of us for whom the challenge isn't ALL of what golf is about.  Not many courses achieve both of these things.  If Olympic does... and it sounds like it will... well dammit this is to be celebrated.

I believe this with all my heart.

But it just makes me more of a pussy, huh?   ;D

TH
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 02:29:24 PM by Tom Huckaby »

JakaB

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2004, 02:50:46 PM »
I'm not buying it Huck...I just don't think the course gets easier for a golfer of your caliber as it reaches its zenith of fastivity...Tell me..of all the golfers in the world that play more than 4 times per year...what percentage could you beat...I would say 95 to 98%...The way you spew crap you may get a demotion.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 02:58:37 PM by JakaB »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2004, 03:01:27 PM »
Huckster, Leprechaun, America's Guest, JakaB, Barneyf, John K. . . . or whichever of your angst riddled personalities I am addressing  ;):

Enough of this petty squabbling. You need to settle this like real men and not like sniveling twats, lobbing snot and spitballs across the cyberspace. . . .

Ten paces, turn and fire - off the first tee at Olympic.

Remember the Broderick-Terry Duel (The last legal one held in the United  States) was contested across Lake Merced next to SFGC.

Well, if the bluebloods can have a duel, so can the Mick's, Dago's and *poor starving Armenians* at Olympic.

Let the best *Pussy* win.

Patrick,

You are absolutely right. I find that happens a lot with you. Actually, we have thought long and hard about treelines also and most of the eucalyptus, rotting pines and ill-placed saplings by previous committees blocking lines of play have been removed.

Whether the chicken (rough lines) or the egg (trees) came first in invalidating the architecure  hardly matters; these issues are being taken into consideration in conjunction with drawing new rough lines. I am delighted to report that a particularly egregious example of political stupidity - in the form of an enormous overhanging eucalpytus at the corner of the 14th hole - has been given the chainsaw.

Get well my friend, I hope to see you when I come east in April.

-G  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 03:03:10 PM by Gib_Papazian »

THuckaby2

Re:Olympic Club tree trimming
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2004, 03:06:30 PM »
Yikes.  From pussy to asshole.  That is a demotion.  OK, let me try and save myself.

First, you seem to have as high an opinion of my game as I do a low one.  Do you so soon forget how I chopped my way around Pasa with you?  Well, it happened.  My current index is 3.8, which sounds good, but really isn't that great at all - it stays that low because I'm unable to post many rounds, and I have a few really great ones that chronologically won't go away!  So yes, I have my moments, but in general I am just a slightly better than decent player.

That being said, someone once quoted to me that 5 handicap means top 5% of all players, so I guess I could beat a lot of people there.  Just do realize that as it was - long, wet, etc. - it absolutely was the hardest type of course for me to play, because if I have a good part of my game, it's straight driving, and that doesn't matter for shit when it's long and wet.  The course killed me, and while it kills everyone else, anyone who could hit the ball FAR had a big advantage over me.  So if I am in the top 5%, well.. at OClub make it top 10%.

Make if firm and fast and it hurts the long hitters and helps me.  So that 5% might go to 3%.

In any case, I guess you're right - basing this on me v. other golfers, if the stats are to be believed, then I guess I am an asshole.  I can beat a lot of people there, no matter what the conditions are.

I just do believe that as a short hitter, the course is going to be easier for me firm and fast than long and wet.  I've explained why many times already.  Now you have given me food for thought in the "why is this relevant" category, and you got me there, I guess.  I ought not to use myself as an example, and I am an idiot irrelevant redundant liar moron pussy asshole for doing so.  (all names I've been called this week, btw).   ;D

So ok, let's take ME out of this, as I should have done from the start.

For the average golfer, the course will be easier/much more doable firm and fast.  For the long hitter (for whom distance wasn't a big issue ever anyway, as shivas says), it's harder, for the reasons you describe.

Does saying this keep me demoted to assholehood?  Demote me even lower?  God forbid, save me?

I await your judgment.

TH

« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 03:07:58 PM by Tom Huckaby »

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