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Lou_Duran

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Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2004, 12:37:44 PM »
Scott,

What you say about access to the course is true, though the management may from time to time assist a travelling rater with a very flexible schedule.  I've tried a couple of times when I've only had a small window to play in, but it hasn't worked out.  The word from several people, including some raters, is that the course is not that special.  Both Spanish Oaks and Cimarron Hills nearby have received higher recommendations.  I will try real hard to play the course this spring and report.

Matt_Ward

Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2004, 12:46:49 PM »
Lou:

Get over to Cimarron Hills when time permits -- it's just a notch or two below Dallas National -- although the land at CH is nowhere near the majesty at DN. The only "complicated" hole is the 2nd which has trees in the preferred driving zone.

Jack did a marvelous job with the site and for those who want to see a "new" Nicklaus I think CH does quite well as an example.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2004, 12:59:23 PM »
Matt, I've played it a couple of times and really liked it.  It does have a severe rock problem with no easy solutions.  The routing is also not as quaint as I would like, specially starting and ending.  You are right about Nicklaus and his use of the land.  In my book, it is just one notch below Spanish Oaks (Weed), and with some selective clearing and rock removal, it could be on the cusp of a modern top 100.


Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2004, 01:06:24 PM »
I played Buffalo Creek a few years back and enjoyed it. Anyone else played there? I am surprised it does not make Texas top 25, but it is not GD top 100.
Mr Hurricane

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2004, 01:16:15 PM »
I've played it numerous times and like it a lot.  If it is not in the top 25 in Texas, it is close.  That it is run by American Golf does not help the property, nor the proximity of residential development.  Enjoyable, playable Weiskopf & Morrish design with bent greens which suffer during a good part of the year.  Some flood and wet grounds issues, but well worth the effort to play.

CHrisB

Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2004, 01:49:54 PM »
I have not played Dallas National, Whispering Pines, Colonial or Austin GC.

But I've played almost everything else of note in TX and Spanish Oaks is my favorite so far. Firm & fast, nice routing, bunkers that are well sculpted out of the rugged topography, blind shots that are rare for a modern course, and a good and varied set of greens, with sideslopes, bathtubs, moguls and plateaus incorporated into them.

With the addition of Spanish Oaks, Austin GC, and Cimarron Hills in the last few years, golf in central Texas is getting better!

Matt_Ward

Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2004, 02:03:27 PM »
Chris B:

You're absolutely right about things "getting better" in
Texas -- just remember when you're in the basement it does take time to get to the first floor -- never mind, the penthouse. ;D

P.S. There are land areas where superior golf can be attained in The Lone Star State. I have always believed the Big Bend area can be such a spot -- notwithstanding the dud one finds at Lajitas. Ditto the Hill County in and around Austin -- I would just hope people would not opt for the "tried & true" gated community facility that often is more about home sales than anything remotely connected to golf.

Can't say enough about Dallas National though. TF is often a favorite whipping boy on GCA but I would say that Dallas National and Glenwild (Park City, UT) are clear efforts that TF can certainly hit a big time home run as he has with the two aforementioned layouts.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2004, 02:05:34 PM »
Buffalo Creek is the only course I've played in Texas (March, 1996) and it wasn't bad.  Big property, IIRC.

How good is Bunker Hill's Delaware Springs (see GCA.com course profile) about an hour outside of Austin?

CHrisB

Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2004, 02:24:06 PM »
Scott,
I'd say Delaware Springs is about as good of a municipal course as you can find. It definitely has a "Texas Hill Country" feel to it, but it is a little less rugged and definitely less hilly and more spread out than Spanish Oaks. The greens have to be interesting because there are a number of holes with no bunkers on them (probably too many for my tastes). So there is a good variety of bumps and slopes on them, with many interesting pins, and, like C&C's Barton Creek Cliffside course, there are several fallaway greens. The routing, esp. on the front, is spread out with longer walks between holes. Solid, strategic, scenic in spots, definitely Texas, but not on the level with the state's best, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 02:24:51 PM by ChrisB »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2004, 02:38:14 PM »
Delaware Springs is not highly regarded, nor apparently in the class of numerous municipal courses being built in Texas (e.g. Tierra Verde, TangleRidge, Ridgeview Ranch).  I know that a former "member" there and another former golfing partner of mine like the course, but do not give it really high marks.  Apparently it has a strong local customer base and it is inexpensive.  I've been by it a few times, but never played it.  It looks like it was built also to spur residential development.  I was not aware that it was a municipal course as opposed to just daily-fee.  

Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2004, 04:11:09 PM »
Lou - your forgetting Texas Star, by Keith Foster - a great course.


HAS EVERYONE LOST THEY'RE MARBLES!!   ??? ???

Brook Hollow is the best track in Texas.  BH's green complexes are just better IMHO than CCC.  Both are very strategic and relatively short.  And after Crenshaw's refurbishment of BH in 1993, the bunkers are back to they're old glory.

I say this without seeing DN or Cim Hills though.
   
Colonial is a great track no doubt, and will always be on the top-100 list in US.  IMO, it needs an upgrade.  I know Keith Foster came in during 1999 after the tourney and re-furbished it, and did a marvelous job - the greens are fabulous now.  But the design wasn't changed at all.  Here's why I say this:

#18 is a total joke now to the pros and most good golfers.  Colonial has great closing holes with 12-17 being strong (although #12 & #14, though good, do resemble each other quite a bit) and with good variety.  #18 needs to give the pros a kick in the arss with a few more yards and snugging the water up to or more around the front of the green.  I think there's a few yards to move the tee's back, I'm not positive though.

#7 needs to be re-designed to it's old glory - before the flood project ruined #7 & #8 (one of the best par-3's in the US I have read BTW).  The tee here can be moved back also a few yards.  PLUS, the channel coming off the Trinity River is right up next to the green on it's left.  This would make a great green site snugging the green up to the creek, while keeping the same green shape and contours as they are adequate IMO.

#8 is a strong par-3, but could be lengthened.  I believe there has been talk of putting a championship tee out on a man-made peninsula on the Trinity.  This would be great, if such a thing could be pulled off.  Core of Engineers might not allow this though.


Colonial is sadly left off of everybody's 'top-blah, blah, blah' lists.  It's a shame too, because the strategy is so abundant @ CCC.  After all, how can all the accolades the pros give it be wrong??  They all the best courses, year after year?

dorse

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2004, 07:55:18 PM »
Dorse,

I am not a big Foster fan, though the three courses of his that I've played (Quarry, Tadition @ Cypresswood, Texas Star) are certainly interesting and difficult.  Texas Star, in my opinion, is much too hard for its market- corporate, resort, and upscale daily-fee.  Strange for a municipal course, I think.

Keith spent a lot of money on such things as retaining walls on creeks only visible when you get to them, waterfalls that you can't see unless you're looking backwards from the green, elevated greens on long holes that run away from you, semi-blind tee shots with few references, a blind green at the bottom of a hill with trash closely behind it, an uphill 250 yard par 3 into or diagonally to the prevailing wind with a deep depression guarding the left side of the green preventing the run-up shot.  Add all the "natives" (= lost balls), eye-browed bunkers where you can loose a ball down the middle of the fairway (#1), huge tree in the middle of the fairway some 200 yards from the back tees (#9), and several other idiosyncracies, and the average Schmoe who plays the course doesn't have a good time.  It might be a very good as a private with some additional clearing, but as pretty as it is, I wouldn't pay the $50+gf.   By comparison, I think that Tierra Verde is a much superior course, though it too could use wider corridors, at around 40% lower price.

Re: Colonial- #18 is a hole which repeatedly eats my lunch.  The loss of the overhanging tree on the left, a willow as I remember, has cheapened the hole somewhat.  The second shot is still a hard one when the wind is blowing and the green is hard.  Was it Bruce Crampton who knocked a few balls in the water during the final round of the NIT as Devlin did at Torrey Pines?  #s 6 and 7 are the weakest holes architecturally, though #s 1 & 2 are probably the best opportunities to go under par.

If I was a member of influence at Colonial, I would try to  convert the greens to Champions (Mr. Leonard would roll in his grave), limit the use of electric carts, introduce pull carts, let the course get firm and fast, thin out/ underwater/ underfertilize the roughs, and create more chipping areas around the greens.  If the pros shoot 24 under, so what.  Not many of the good golfers play the back tees at Colonial, so there is really no need to add length.

I would also cut the trees back to the left of 15 and perhaps bunker #7 more heavily 100 yards from the green.  Adding some movement and roll to the fairways would probably help, but that opportunity was not taken when they converted the fairways from common bermuda to 419 a few years back.  The walk-back from 12 gree to 13 tee is also less than ideal.  I wonder if a very short, semi-blind, but extremely tight par 4 into the prevailing wind would work there with the tees to the tees just to the south of 12 green (near the shelter/snack area).   If a Colonial member is reading this, I am sure he is thinking that thank God this guy in not one.  

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2004, 08:00:16 PM »
Re: Brook Hollow, it is a great member's course, though I was expecting much more than I saw.  I need to get back out there soon.  It did have the most impressive collection of cars in the parking lot that I've seen since visiting Riviera.  I think that I liked Northwood as much, and Royal Oaks is not that far behind it.  Stonebriar CC is another course in the area that is very good though not well-known.  Preston Trail may be slightly overrated, but I heard that a major renovation is in the cards (Fazio, I think).

Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2004, 03:09:08 AM »
Lou,

I totally agree an your assessment of Star, it's VERY difficult.  And the no-tresspass grass just off the fairways is ridiculous.  I can't the par-3, but I do recall the other idiosyncacies you mentioned.

Another one that doesn't get much acclaim is Southern Oaks by Mark Brooks.  I thought this was a wonderful track.  Lots of variety and Brooks had a knack of leaving some great signature old oak trees in great places to frame the holes.  Also adding in a Tillinghast tribute=like par-3 with deep bunkers surrounding all sides of the elevated green.

Your thoughts on Southern Oaks and why Brooks hasn't done anything since??  I called in 2002 and asked about joining and they said they don't take memberships anymore, so they're just public I guess.  I also called Brooks firm just down the street from me @ TCU and they said Mr. Brooks is no longer with the firm anymore.  Did he branch off??


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2004, 09:48:13 AM »
 8)

While not a fan of top this or top that gca ratings, there certainly is a great value to hearing folks opinions about different courses to shape one's plans for adventure.

Now if every rater could publish their golf diary so we could see how their opinions change over time..

Hats off to Lou for all these insights.  But when I see no public access noted, why should I care?

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2004, 11:49:37 AM »
Steve,

You too joined the anti-ratings/rater crowd?

Personally, I don't care that you don't care.  Read what you will.  As far as I know, this site is not restricted to public access courses only.  And as a member of a private club, you probably have access to well over 90% of all courses of consequence.  Haven't you ever had your pro call his counterpart at another club on your behalf?

And why are you so anxious to find fault with raters?  I surely hope that as the raters' experience grows and new courses are added to inventory, that their opinions change accordingly.      

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Top 100 in Texas - Are you kidding me?
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2004, 03:04:18 PM »
 8)

Hi Lou,

No, not signed up yet.  I still value raters opinions, their experiences being reported, etc.. For instance, while I may have likely played more courses in North Carolina in 25 years than I have in TX in 12, by reading your recommendations and comments it gives me a list of ideas or thoughts. I'll be interested to try and experience some of those for myself.  

I just do not like the "yearly" forced glossy rankings and incessant arguments regarding them.  While every year's new rankings are a reflection of the integrated or improved judgement of the raters' knowledge/experience the simple fact that a course didn't get enough raters to see it to vote sort of takes the objectivity out of the whole exercise.  

I know rankings are inevitable but I don't think there's sufficient overall acuity or perhaps the requisite blend of accuracy and precision in the rater population's opinions to consistently target the real cumulative differences within "great" or "good" or "poor" sets of gca courses.  Betwen these sets or populations yes, within the sets/populations no.  I go for the lumping of maybe top 50 examples of pre-1900 gca.  Then list me the top 250 type 1900-1950 vintage, then 1951-2000 approach.

Yes, I've taken advantage of reciprocal entre' via my pros..  I will do so in the future as well.  I just get tired of the endless gca references being thrown around to limited access private courses.  It does nothing for me today, maybe someday, but not today.

Enjoy.  


Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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