Southern Pines

[Andy Hughes]

We are planning to be in Pinehurst for 4-5 days in April, and I have been dying to play Southern Pines. Is it still worth playing? Is it in any kind of condition?

[Jim_Kennedy]

I played there in early March '03, before the season begins, and it was in vg shape although a bit wet at that time of year.

[Andy Hughes]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the comments.
A friend warned it might have fallen upon hard times, and also that it might no longer be much of a Ross course.

I am actually very enthused to play there, and yes, we will also be playing Tobacco Road (and the Pit, Pine Needles and Tot Hill Farm).  It should be a few very good days.

[Andy Hughes]

Mike,
Yes, I have read Ran's review (not to sound too geeky, but I suspect I have read the reviews and enjoyed the pics of each course listed at least a half dozen times, the ones that really struck me many more).

Andy

[Brian_Gracely]

ahughes584,

Tot Hill Farms is not in the Sandhills area and is probably at least an hour's drive.  If you're wanting to get your Strantz fix, I'd suggest playing Tobacco Road twice.  It's definitely a course that take more than one round to understand all the options.  And don't miss out on MidPines if you're a Ross fan, as the routing and greens are excellent and will give you a great feel for Ross design...and it's right across the street from Pine Needles and they often have deals if you play both courses.  

Feel free to contact me if you want anymore details or suggestions.  I live about 45 minutes from there in Raleigh.

Brian
bgracely@cisco.com

[Matthew Schulte]

Pine Needles will probably still be closed as John Fought has been hired to oversee some changes there.

[Steve Lang]

 

Have only missed playing SPCC twice in ~20 years of visiting thereabouts... also go out to the back nine to get the full flavor, I've always wondered if it wasn't an experimental area..  have been told it was a south 18 but i only see 9 there..

[Andy Hughes]

<<Tot Hill Farms is not in the Sandhills area and is probably at least an hour's drive.  If you're wanting to get your Strantz fix, I'd suggest playing Tobacco Road twice.>>
Brian, we will be driving down from D.C. Wednesday morning, and plan to play Tot Hill Farm that afternoon, and drive on to Pinehurst Thursday morning.  This is the plan anyway.
I am then planning on the Pit Thursday afternoon, two rounds at Tobacco Road Friday (great minds think alike!), 18 at Pine Needles Saturday and 18 at Southern Pines Sunday.  I received my price quote two days ago; am awaiting two more.
But now it sounds like perhaps Pine Needles perhaps will not be available (thanks M_Schulte), though the condo/package place had said it would closed a little bit later. I will doublecheck that, and perhaps change to Mid Pines. There will be a group of us, and price is an issue for a couple of the guys, so I have had to pick and choose a little bit and make some choices--and that meant either Mid Pines OR Pine Needles, and certainly not Pinehurst #2. Unfortunate, as I almost never get chances to play classic or superior courses, but the other courses look terrific, especially Tobacco Road.

 
<<Feel free to contact me if you want anymore details or suggestions.  I live about 45 minutes from there in Raleigh.>>
Thanks Brian, I think I will do that if it is not an imposition.

<<go out to the back nine to get the full flavor>>
I read somewhere (perhaps on this site?) about another 9 holes at Southern Pines that has fallen by the wayside somewhat.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Pine Needles will be closed for Fought's work from May through mid-October.

Good stuff on Pine Needles, including old photos, green sketches and hole sketches, can be found here:

http://www.pineneedles-midpines.com/cgi-bin/photo/index.cgi?mode=view&album=/Pine+Needles+Restoration

[Bill_McBride]

Be sure to have a drink at the Pinecrest Inn bar - best in town.  Cheers!

[Rob_Waldron]

If you need a back up course consider Davis Love's Anderson Creek ( A little hike from Pinehurst but a good day of arrival or day of departure alternative). The course struggled with conditioning during grow in, but I understand everything is fine now. It is relly a fun and challenging course with very tricky greens.

You may also want to consider Tallamore which is a wonderful track. Legacy is also good but generally very crowded and play can be slow, especially if the mandatory cart path rule is in effect. You can have the Pit...It Is "The Pits".  Every time I play I swear I will never return. enjoy!

[Brian_Gracely]

I absolutely second the comment that The Pit is "The Pitts".

If you're going to drive out near Anderson Creek, skip it and go over to the Campebll University course (Keith Hills) in Buies Creek.

Actually, skip all those side trips to Tot Hill, Anderson Creek, Keith Hills and just play in the Sandhills area.  For the money you save on gas and time going to those places, play one of the non-#2 Pinehurst courses (4, 7, .  #7 & 8 are off the property, so you don't get to experience all of the things around the Village and the Pinehurst clubhouse.  #4 is a little more expensive, but there is nothing better than the atmosphere around the clubhouse before the round (croquet on the front lawn, the enormous putting green, Maniac Hill) and then having a beer on the huge porch after the round and watching people come in on the 18th on #2.  

Here'd be my suggested initerary if you don't want to pay the premium for #2 (or 7-8):

- Pinehurst #4 (experience Pinehurst)..or play #1 to experience Old World Pinehurst

- Tobacco Road (twice, and talk to Joe Gay in the Clubhouse between rounds because he's always there)

- MidPines (great Ross course that hasn't been changed.  and the greens have the original contours, so don't expect them to be Pinehurst #2 fast)

- Tallamore (good Rees Jones course.  feels like a Sand Hills course..lots of tall pines)

- Southern Pines

- If you can find a way to get on CC of North Carolina (via your pro or some other way), it's a great set of courses (Dogwood held the US Amateur) and an unbelievable setting.

[Andy Hughes]

Heh, interesting re the Pit. I played there many, many years ago (maybe 1986 or 1987, or maybe the couse opened a few years later and I just can't keep my years staight at this point), and while I don't remember details, I do recall thinking it was unusual, and had some very cool green sites. Why does the Pit engender such dislike?

OK, one thing you guys have made clear is that I did right signing up for Southern Pines.  If I have to choose (which I do), do I choose Pine Needles or Mid Pines?  I've read the reviews here, and really, it doesn't seem like I can go wrong either way.

Also, Tot Hill Farm is going to be (kinda) on the way. Is it worth stopping there on the way down from DC? I have to assume, as a Strantz course, that it will get our attention and be fun to play.

Re #4, my quick story: we were at Pinehurst in the late 80s, and were playing #4 when it started to pour, really pour.  We  drove off, and found cover under a little shed.  It ended up raining for over an hour, and the other 18 guys in our group all had gone already in.  I realized, while killing time, that we had actually wandered off when we went looking for cover and that we were parked on #2, and when the rain stopped, we zipped over to the second tee and played our round on #2!


Bill, thanks for the tip. Pinecrest Inn it is for the drinks.

[Brian_Gracely]

ahughes584,

I usually love quirky layouts that have a bunch of options, but something about The Pit just kep making me say "what the hell? where they thinking?"  To each his own and there is lots of room for opinion, so go with your instinct.  BUT, if you told me that we were making a trip to Sandhills and it was going to begin with Tot Hills and then The Pit, I'd tell you that I'll just meet you at the Pinecrest for the better part of the trip.  I love Strantz works.  Tobacco Road is one of my favorite places to play and I consider myself lucky to live so close, but I just thought that Strantz went way overboard at Tot Hill. And I hate to say that because it sounds so Matt Ward, but there are maybe 6-7 holes where you're wondering why he needed to leave boudlers in the middle of the fairway.  It's probably worth playing once, but I think you'll be pleasantly shocked at the difference between that and Tobacco Road.  

Keep in mind that Pinehurst #4 has been completely redone since the 80s, so it's probably not the course you played before.

[Todd_Joseph]

My group made a similar stop at Tot Hill on the way down from Ohio last spring and I thought it was worth the stop.  At least we could get in an afternoon round after driving all morning.   I thought it was a fun second shot course because of the crazy greens, but several of our high handicappers struggled.   You may want to call on the condition.  I think there was a bad flood last fall that wiped out several holes.    Skip Palmer's Carolina and Foxfire.

Todd

[Andy Hughes]

<<My group made a similar stop at Tot Hill on the way down from Ohio last spring and I thought it was worth the stop.  At least we could get in an afternoon round after driving all morning.  I thought it was a fun second shot course because of the crazy greens, but several of our high handicappers struggled.  You may want to call on the condition.  I think there was a bad flood last fall that wiped out several holes.    Skip Palmer's Carolina and Foxfire.>>Todd
Todd, thanks for the advice. I'm sure I'll show some ignorance somehow for saying this, but I have learned generally to skip all Palmer courses.  They always seem to have more fanfare than I feel they deserve, and I always leave feeling like I have played just another course.  I'm sure it is some moral failing on my part.
High handicappers in our group struggling at Tot Hill will just be an added bonus for me  

<<I usually love quirky layouts that have a bunch of options, but something about The Pit just kep making me say "what the hell? where they thinking?"  To each his own and there is lots of room for opinion, so go with your instinct.>>Brian
Sadly, I don't really remember the Pit, I just recall leaving with a warm fuzzy and thoughts of greens coolly tucked between mini-sand dunes.  
I have to start our trip at Tot Hill.  Resistance-is-futile. I am drawn like the proverbial moth to the Strantz flame (though I didn't know there were boulders in the fairways, wtf?). Even so, I am sure I will find numerous shots/holes that will strike me as cool, unique or interesting, which is more than I can normally say for almost any course. But, if regret our opening two rounds, I will certainly give you the chance to say "Told ya so!"

Brian, are you suggesting I play Mid Pines instead of Pine Needles if I could only play one of them? That surprises me.
I really wish I could play both. I guess that means I will just have to make a retutn trip someday!

PS #4 would look new to me regardless, as we only played a few holes before the rainout, and then I snuck over to #2 to play the remainder of the day.
And no, 'fraid I don't have a way on to CC of North Carolina

[Brian_Gracely]

Andy,

Tot Hill did have some flood damage in 2003, but it's been fixed.  I think I heard they turned the 18th hole into a 700+ yard uphill finisher.  It's not listed as such on the website, but I got some emails about it this fall.  

I'm pretty sure that Pine Needles is going to be under rennovation at that time.  I personally prefer MidPines to Pine Needles, but you wouldn't go wrong with either one.  Pine Needles get all the attention, but MidPines is somewhat of a hidden gem.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'd second the opinions about Tot Hill.  It isn't Tobacco Rd., and I think sometimes suffers by comparison, but is well worth the stop.  It's just a lot of fun, and unique layout.  Its worth the stop to see a par 3 with a three level green with about 60 yds. from the front of the lower level to the back of the rear level.  I was told they can't use the top level for a pin position because players who land on the lower level sometimes hit L wedges off the green surface rather than putt!

At both places, just enjoy very, very unique GCA.

[Andy Hughes]

700 yard finishing hole?  Heh. Guess we won't be reaching that pup in two... Was that a result of the flooding, or just a planned redesign (its not a bug, its a feature?)?

If I may Brian, is there a particular reason you prefer Mid Pines?

AG, thanks for the confirmation--it sounds like Tot Hill may not be my first choice to play weekly, but it does sounds like I need to go round at least once. Now, about these boulders in the fairways...Getting to hear my buddies say, "What the.." once or twice will make it well worth it!

[Brian_Gracely]

ahughes584,

Bug or a feature, huh?  

NC got a ton of rain last year (something like 140+ inches), so the problems at Tot Hill were caused by flooding in the low area of the course (#15-18).  It wasn't designed to be a 700+ Par5 (uphill), but that's what their email updates have been telling me.  I haven't been back out there to see it.

As far as MidPines vs. PineNeedles, it's one of those debates where you're not going to pick a wrong answer.  From a golf perspective, MidPines just "feels" like more of a Ross course to me.  The greens have retained all of their slopes and contours (and they are moved to a speed to allow them to play as designed), and the slope of the land seems to come into play alot more at MidPines (#4, #5, #10, #12, #14).  The longer holes at PineNeedles (#2, #5, #6-7, #14-15, #17-18) are very demanding and a good test of long iron play, something that isn't required as much at MidPines because it's slightly shorter.  The greens at PineNeedles (except for #3, #5) are more subtle than MidPines.  

Plus, MidPines is usually less expensive ($20-50/round), is usually less crowded, and they have great sandwiches in the bar.  For someone like me that just goes down there for the day, it makes for a very enjoyable afternoon.  But you're not going to make a mistake at either place...unless of course PineNeedles is still under rennovation  

[Todd_Joseph]

Regarding Tot Hill -   Hopefully the 4 tier par three is still intact after the flooding.  From reading the online article last summer, it seemed that all the holes in that valley were damaged severely, which included most of the par threes.  

I don't rememeber the boulders being all that much of a problem except on the par threes, but usually there was a safer shot which took the boulders out of play.  

The par 7 hole was constructed after the flood and I think it plays from the old 16 tee, across the 17th fairway and up to 18's green.   It's really too bad because 16 and 17 had pretty unique, interesting greensites (and I eagled 16 from 120 out!!).

[Andy Hughes]

Todd and Brian, it sounds like it would behoove me to call Tot Hill before making plans. Thanks much for the heads up; much better to know ahead of time if the course is mangled.

Todd, that's actually my definition of a good and well-designed hole--one that I've eagled.  I have, uhh, not played nearly enough well-designed holes....

<Sigh> well Brian, you have changed my mind </Sigh>. I have wavered and waffled and gone back and forth, but Mid Pines it is.  The great course, cheaper green fees, original conditions, green contours all sound well and good. But you never said anything about great sandwiches! Pine Needles will have to wait. Thanks  

[Brian_Gracely]

Andy,

If Tot Hill falls through, then contact MidPines/Pine Needles and see if they have any packages to play both.  

[A.G._Crockett]

The boulders at Tot Hill aren't in play unless you mishit.  They are classic Mike Strantz design in that they
   1. make the tee shot SEEM much harder than it is by hiding
       the landing area
   2. direct you to that landing area.

They are also, in most cases, have a reasonably natural look in terms of the surrounding terrain.  It is NOT a flat area, or the Sandhills, by any stretch.

[Andy Hughes]

, its a nice life, no? If Tot Hill falls through I will be forced to go play Pine Needles (good suggestion on the package idea)!

A.G. I hope I will still think so in a few months, but at this point I am sure my buddies and I will be talking about Tot Hill hours/days after the round. If nothing else, they'll be blaming me for being 2 levels and 50 feet away after hitting some par 3!  
I'm ok with boulders strewn about. I'd prefer not to have boulders strewn about in the fairways