[Mark_Fine]

Many of the classic courses that are being restored today and/or are candidates for restoration just don't have the room to restore original fairway widths and bring hazards back into play and the primary reason is cart paths.  They are unfortunately viewed as a necessary evil.  What a nightmare for doing restorations!  Anyone else feel the same?
Mark

[Norbert P]

 Very sad.  Doesn't restoration mean that a golf course is being brought back to some idealic former glory?  And not being restored for future marketability and acceptability?   I hate to use a GCA cliche' but cart paths dumb down the spirituality of golf courses and ones connectedness to nature and ones own body.  

CARTS AND CART PATHS ARE EVIL !!!!!! AS WRONG AS THE FOOT WEDGE.  AS SMELLY AS CANCELLED AND COMPOSTING ALIMONY CHEQUES. AS SLIMY AS A SLUG IN THE BOTTOM OF YOUR BEER.  AS INHUMANE AS MULCHING KITTENS. AS CORROSIVE TO OUR SOCIETY AS CRACK-COCAINE. (!)

 

[Lou_Duran]

This is just an observation, but it seems to me that the anti-cart rhetoric is just that.  I've been to numerous outings with other self described walking die-hards, and if the green fee is all-inclusive, cart golf is the name of the game.  I would take the greater width with the cart paths in place, though the aesthetics may not be as good and the really wild shots may be penalized more severely.  Tree removal or thining is a good thing by itself.  If clubs chose to tear out the continuous cart paths and encourage walking, all the better (but I wouldn't hold my breath).      

[TEPaul]

Mark:

The only time this problem really jumped out at me was last summer at the PA State Amateur at Scranton C.C. on the 14th hole. The cart path that swung around the right side of that fairway should be moved way over to the far left side of the hole anyway but as it is it prevents some fairway expansion out to the right or the possibility of an alternate fairway restoration out to the right. Plus some of the long bombers were hitting the cart path on this right to left swinging hole and high bouncing their balls out into impossible fescue from which the chances of even finding the ball wasn't great. Definitely a restrictive cart path and one in the wrong place on the hole anyway!

[A_Clay_Man]

One question I have is about the total acceptance on the cart, as it exists to day. Is there no vision for a new design for a cart. Lighterweight, safe?

Doesn't this ADA thang force single-rider designs? Why not have them all smaller single rider, less weight, less wear and tear. Less need for a cart path.

Carts are needed for those who might not golf otherwise. Sometimes I'm that guy, no matter how much I don't want to be.

[Joel_Stewart]

This is a no win situation.  At Olympic, they have rerouted the paths a few times on certain holes.  Recently a number of holes have just the tee and around the green cart paths with the fairways being left alone.  Maybe this would solve your problem Mark.

[ed_getka]

Lou,
  You don't think that most of us walk for most of our rounds? When we have these outings, there are usually multiple rounds of golf involved, and not everyone can walk 36 holes. I have been on my share of GCA outings and carts were only used in 3 cases. Once at Barona Creek and the other two at Sand Hills (for one round on 45 hole days).Do you walk 36 holes a day for consecutive days when you golf by yourself? Did you walk all your holes at Sand Hills, carrying your own bag?

I think some courses don't have a choice regarding cart paths due to the soil conditions combined with overwatering. Just put the paths where golfers aren't supposed to hit their ball and call it a hazard!

[Mark_Fine]

The cart is here to stay whether we like it or not!  I am not trying to debate that.

My point is that when doing classic course restorations, cart paths can present REAL problems in doing the work.  Think about parallel fairways with hazards down the middle.  It's tough to restore those fairways back to those hazards when you have to fit in a cart path.  That is just one example.

We all know many older courses just don't have the acreage to restore the old fairway widths, bring old hazards back into play, and add cart paths at the same time.  Taking out trees is helpful yes, but often those trees were planted in the old fairway lines so you can't just run the cart paths there.  

Furthermore, many older courses suffer drainage problems that are expensive to fix.  And even if you address that problem, carts are viewed as necessary to keep the courses open in wet conditions for the much needed revenue.  

It's a big problem and forces many compromises in a restoration.
Mark

[Doug Siebert]

A_Clay_Man: "lighter weight, safe".  Safe?  I've never seen an unsafe cart, except when it is driven by someone intoxicated past the point where they'd be arrestable for drunk driving anyway.  I suppose they can tip over, but they don't weigh enough to collapse the roof.

Anyway, I don't understand why courses don't cover the cartpaths with something like artificial turf (use the FieldTurf stuff they use for football fields now) to make it look less intrusive and have less of a turbo-bounce problem.  If Muirfield can cover their sprinklerheads with the stuff to keep them unobtrusive, why can't lesser courses cover their cartpaths?

[tonyt]

Olympic has cart paths?

Man I feel lucky being in Australia. I'll bet there are no pre WWII courses in my homeland that have cart paths. Between holes and around tees is often the go here for brand new courses.

No, a renovation or design should never have to allow for tee to green cart paths. The American way continues to baffle me  

[ed_getka]

Tony,
  How much clay and overwatering do you have down under?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Don't get me started on golf carts.  I played Philly Cticket Club last summer and the cart paths ruined the course for me even though I took a caddy.  FYI I am 57 years old and play 36 or 45 at least two or three times a month,  walking and carrying.  There are some courses that are holding the line against carts (Baltusrol, Wonged Foot, Pine Valley makes you drive in the woods) but they are diminishing and so is the fun of the game(sport).

[A_Clay_Man]

Doug- I don't how old you are, but I can remember the old three wheeler carts. They were dangerous. I have seen them tip over on smaller hillocks. I thought liability was a big issue surrounding these things.

It just seems so short sighted to design a course with these paths when the cart has been around for less than a century. Of course, the short sighted profit driven justification does not escape me.

[woof]

tommy W:  at the Cricket Club did you play Wissihickon or Militia Hill?

[frank_D]

would the restoration happen without the additional revenue stream of anticipated cart fees?

if YES then its a no brainer

if NO then - if carts paths and the revenues generated by the carts are eliminated - the question becomes how to make up for this revenue - and at the same time afford the restoration

well most golfers i've asked would prefer to walk - but what to do with 50 plus pounds of equipment in the bag - so the solution usually is for my group to hire the cart and load the bag on it and walk accompanied by the cart - necessitating the cart path

the simple answer is caddies - however the club does not participate in this revenue as the caddie is usually an independant contractor - and the club would only collect greens fees - with the cart fee supplanted by the caddie fee from the golfer to the caddie

well my group of golfers / walkers winds up paying a caddie driver PLUS cart fees for the luxury of walking - which is the more complex answer - how to get enough individuals interested in driving a cart for two walkers - we at the moment hire our own who are classified as "riders"

i am NOT an advocate of carts but in all the responses FOR carts there is always the REVENUE aspect being brought up -  i do not yet agree with the numbers in all cases - so until a robot type single bag gyroscope assisted cart is perfected - i guess it will be a while before all cart paths can be torn out

had the USGA financed grants to MIT students to focus on this idea instead of get into NYC real estate - i beleive we could all be walkers today or in the near future

if we can have ground transport on mars we should be able to find some sort of ground transport for a single bag of clubs which will be stable on all terrain / elevations etc - and be rented out by the club to support a revenue stream needed to fund operations

[DPL11]

tommy W:  at the Cricket Club did you play Wissihickon or Militia Hill?

I would imagine that it was Militia Hill. The Wissahickon course doesn't have many paths except for the main access road that leads to the range, maintenance facility, and Militia Hill course.

The access road does cross about 4 holes.

Doug

[mike_malone]

 Mark
    One thing that has helped is the recognition that it is ok to let carts scatter and ride on fairways except when quite wet.This enables us to move all those paths that were placed too close to play AT THE CONVENIENCE OF THE DRIVERS!!!
 Now those paths can be moved away because they are only needed on wet days.  
     I have seen some good paths on classic courses in our area---Huntingdon Valley,Torresdale-Frankford,Phila.Country,Aronimink are a few.Rolling Green stills needs to do some work.

[A_Clay_Man]

Now those paths can be moved away because they are only needed on wet days.  

Sadly Mayday, that happens to be everyday, lately. (not course specific)

[mike_malone]

 Mark
     Many people do not think much about the path on our #7 hole BECAUSE THERE ARE TREES  between the path and the fairway.THE FAIRWAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE WHERE THE CARTPATH IS NOW.!!!!!
  It is on my list!!!I  think we can change it ;it just takes patience and persistence.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

There are only a few cases in our consulting work where I have really had a problem because of a cart path.  However, we're always being asked to look at moving cart paths because of the visual problems or wear issues ... which I'd rather not touch because they are just a liability suit waiting to happen.

There are many courses I've seen where installing wall-to-wall cart paths would simply be impossible under normally accepted safety guidelines:  when you have three holes in parallel and the centerlines are less than 300 feet apart, you're stuck.  (See:  Pasatiempo, holes 6 & 7.)

Lately, though, I've been lucky:  a lot of the clubs we work at don't have many cart paths and don't intend to start.  Thank God for places like Garden City and San Francisco Golf!

[Mark_Fine]

Mayday,
What do you do on the wet days?  I like the idea of scatter but some older courses are close to unplayable with carts when it is wet without those paths.  Also keep in mind there is a big difference if the course is private vs. public.  There is tremendous pressure on a public course Superintendent to keep the course open is almost any condition.  
Mark

[mike_malone]

 Mark
   When "scatter" is allowed it reduces the number of days of cart path only to a minimum.This makes it possible to design paths for the course's playability instead of driver's convenience.
  I appreciate the public course difference.Glen Mills is new and has concrete(or cement--i always mess up those two) paths.Those paths were designed into the course.They hide them well.
    What you are dealing with is the classic course problem that a guy like Flynn did not design for paths. So many of these courses added paths in bad places.
      In some cases they are being removed where the ground does not get wet(sides of small hills).Your example of a water hazard could be tough since that is probably a low area where wetness requires a path.

[Lou_Duran]

Ed,

I was not thinking of you or GCA outings in particular in my reply.  But now that you mention it, I do recall that Barona on Sunday morning was cart golf, and that BarnyF/JakaB and I may have been the only walkers.  Considering the wonderful evening and late night at Pete's, plus the dawn start, it was certainly understandable.

My reference was more to a number of area competitive players, many flat-bellied, who make fun of the old farts and bitch about cartpath logos on their ProV1s.  Give many of these guys the choice of walking a tournament or taking a free cart, and the cart wins every time.

I am a walker who is content to live with riders.  My only requests are that they respect me for my choice and that they minimize the impact of theirs on the turf.

Extreme positions sometimes staked on this site, e.g. no carts, no paths, no markers, etc. and those who disagree are ignorant, full-of-sh.. devils, are counterproductive.  Balancing the wants of the customers seems to me to be a better approach.

In terms of this thread, I see tree removal and wider fairways to be a positive regardless of the location of the cart paths.  Leaving trees and roughs in place to partially hide the paths is not a good argument.  Perhaps by exposing the concrete and asphalt some converts might be gained, and the paths can be removed or relocated over time.

One other partial solution to the cart problem is the pull cart.  This has been discussed in some length on this site, but there doesn't appear to be a big push in this direction.  Caddies have become too expensive for most folks, and, at times, overly intrusive.

 

[THuckaby2]

Jeez, Lou, have a heart.  In my group, we were cracking beers open on the first tee at 8 am Sunday in a pathetic attempt to get rid of the hangovers from the night before.  

I've solved my walking dilemma.  I'm carrying 8 clubs in a Sunday bag (just bought one) from now on (Driver, 2,4,6,8,W, SW, Putter).  I'm pitching the rest this year for all but the most important rounds. Even those damn, supposedly "lightweight" stand bags put me in traction for a week after I carry them.  

Re that infamous morning at Barona - it reminds me of certain semi and former regulars here walking Pasadera CC - one has to ask, why?  What is there to prove?  

But more importantly shivas - be careful - you are heading down the Dan King road here.  For Dan, it started with 8 clubs, then it was 6, then 4, then none... do you really want to give up the game?  

Seriously though - the great Mike Hendren introduced us to the Sunday Bag answer - remember our round at Pasa?  He carried one then... I bought one shortly after that and it has been my staple ever since, for all walking rounds.  Here's a little hint:  it holds all 14 clubs just fine and you can carry the whole thing with one hand... You'll see in a couple months...

TH

[tonyt]

ed,

I grew up where the 40 nearest golf courses to my home were on nothing but clay. And our Ballarat winters (as other Victorians could testify) have enough rain to count as overwatering.

We Aussies are used to trudging carefully through 100 yards of casual water, not in preference to carts, but in preference to darned cart paths. Quaint I know, but better than a 6 mile or whatever it is concrete strip.

It ain't all sand down here. It's not the clay in general that is the problem in the US. It's the clay that accumulates between the ears of people who want cart paths.

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