[JSlonis]

Our foursome ran into this problem in Scotland last August.  There are many courses there that simply don't allow you to play anywhere but the "white tees".  We had a foursome of pretty good players, two +1 hdcp's, a 3 & a 7 hdcp, but on many courses we were told we had to play from a particular set of tees.  At Kingsbarn's they asked us to show our HDCP cards and then said we could play from wherever we wanted, this is how it should be.  Unfortunately most courses did not have this system.  The course that upset me the most was Carnoustie.  We had to stay at the hotel to get a tee time(no problem), then paid top dollar to play the course.  Prior to our round we were asked to show our HDCP cards and then told we "must" play from the "white markers". We asked politely if we could at least play the back tees if not the championship tees...no luck.  The white yardage that day was set up at about 6300 yds.  I loved the course...BUT...the course was not difficult at all from that yardage, and I left wanting to see the other 1,000 yards that we could have played.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the harm in a group of players playing from the back tees if they can handle it and keep up the pace of play.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I have more fun mixing them up (Some from the blacks, some from the golds, the teals, the corals, the pewters and the reds greens and blues, too.) So there is no rating/slope, does it matter? I did this with the esteemed Mr. Huntley last week as a matter of fact. Anyone else ever do this?

I did it recently with this tall guy during a nine-hole round.  Added to the fun a bit.  

[Lou_Duran]

I prefer playing the tips in most cases, but find that many of my playing partners do not.  Is there a problem with playing different sets of tees within the group (i.e. some play the backs, others the next set)?  It is not a safety or speed of play issue if you're staying alert, but on several ocassions, I've had to move-up for the sake of the group, and a couple of times, players who had no business playing back felt compelled to do so.  Are there some ettiquette issues involved?

I too was forced to play the up tees at PBGL and TOC which not only disturbed me greatly, but probably left me with erroneous opinions of the courses.  I was lucky at Carnoustie that the course was set-up most of the way back for that day.  Unfortunately for two of my playing partners, it was way too hard for them.  I thought the course was world-class; they thought it was a torture chamber.

I've never done it, and there are handicap issues with it, but it would probably be fun playing a match where the loser gets to pick the tees on the next hole, or where each player selects 9 tees before starting.  We once had a Ryder Cup type competition called the Red-White-and Blue where we alternated play from each of the set of tees during the round.  It was goofy, but a nice change of pace.

Tom Doak,

If there is room, what do you think of building tees at progressively much more difficult angles from front to back?  I think that Jay Morrish did this on many holes very well at Pine Dunes near Frankston, TX.  This may sometimes allow a 230+ yard forced carry from the back tee, while giving the higher handicapper an angle to flank most of it.  

[Tom_Doak]

I love to mix and match tees when playing, because I don't enjoy playing any course at 7000 yards, but I don't want to eliminate all the long par-4's by moving up.  (I've described previously that on a couple of courses, such as Lost Dunes, we have a "walking course" in mind that uses the back tees of some holes and the red markers at other holes to minimize green-to-tee walks while presenting a balanced course.)  

If all golfers played from where they had fun, my problems with tee placement would melt away.  But it's not the norm.  The norm is to play the hole from the back and then complain that the architect got it wrong.

Lou:  I do use different angles to make tee shots harder as you describe, where the situation presents itself [the 14th at High Pointe was my first such].  But, I do believe there's a big social stigma with trying to get players in a group to use different tees during a round.  I try to design my courses so that the big hitter can move up without taking driver out of the bag, and so the short hitter can move back without losing ten balls.  But, to do so, you have to give up some of the long carries from the back tees which are the subject of this thread.

[Lou_Duran]

Very interesting, Tom.  But can you really be all things to all people, or are you short changing both?  Can you or anyone else please elaborate on the "big social stigma" thing?  I suspected that such was the case, but I don't understand it.

Another course which is completely different from the up tees is The Golf Club.  From the middle tees, I just failed to understand what the fuzz was all about.

[Dan Grossman]

For the same reasons as Shivas, I generally want to play the back tees because I don't want my round to turn into a wedge fest.  Thats not very fun.  

However, if the "back" tees are mixed and the course is set up well, I usually don't feel the need to walk back to the tee and play the black plates.  

Jamie - we found that most places let us play the medal tees in Scotland if you are nice enough to ask.  We played 18 rounds in England and Scotland and we only played two courses from the front tees, Birkdale and Boat of Garten.  We didn't ask at Birkdale and the pro shop flat out told us no at Boat of Garten.  However, Lytham, Formby, Hillside, Alwoodley, West Lancs, Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Lossiemouth, Golspie and Brora all let us play from the medals.  Most didn't even ask to see our handicap cards.

[Doug Siebert]

Tom Doak:

Where do you think the "social stigma" you are talking about come from?  Do you think it is the players who don't want to do that, or the course management, perhaps in a misguided belief it may slow play?  I play with my dad quite a bit, and I outdrive him by over 100 yards these days, so I'm playing 7000+ while he's playing 6000 or less, so I've gotten used to it.  And I've never had any problems joining others either with him, with others, or by myself playing different tees.  Maybe it is a regional thing, I play most of my golf in the midwest, golfers are more laid back here (probably because we don't endure the $100-$200 green fees they have in CA or the 6 hour rounds they get back East and are thus less stressed out )


JSlonis,

Your experience in Scotland is just how it is.  Its great that they let us play all their courses, but the price we pay is not getting to play the course we want, even if we have the ability for it.  In the US I can't just call up NGLA or ANGC and make a tee time, even two years in advance.  I can do that about anywhere in Scotland.  But on a lot of them the member tees are off limits (even where they are only 5 yards away from the guest tees)

A few don't do it that way, when I played Troon in '91 I was able to play the Open tees by showing my handicap card (they required 8 or less)  When I played Kingsbarns a couple years ago they didn't even ask to see my card, but I played one set up from the back because it was so foggy I couldn't see my ball land if I used a wedge off the tee -- I didn't get out my driver until #9.

Most courses mix things up, either whole course or by holes.  Carnoustie in '91 was all the way back everywhere.  In 2001 I think it played 6200 or 6300 yards (good thing, it was raining pretty good all day)  Muirfield had the par 3s and 5s up one set (making #9 a par 4, not a good trade from a par perspective, but all the 4s were back.  Some courses like TOC don't even mow the Open tees most of the time, which is probably the best defense against someone who wants to play #10 at 380 yards because Tiger does.

[Michael Whitaker]

Is the reason for different sets of tees:

1) to make the course increasingly more difficult, or

2) to try and give varying skill levels the opportunity for relatively the same experience.

JSlonis -

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the harm in a group of players playing from the back tees if they can handle it and keep up the pace of play.

I'm not a "tips" guy, but I agree with you completely. If you can demonstrate that you can play at that level you should be allowed to move as far back as you want.

I went to Ireland a few years ago with some members of the Clemson University golf team. Four of the Clemson boys wanted to play from the tips at Ballybunion, but the pro and secretary were balking. The pro agreed to watch them tee off the first hole then decide if they could move back. We got great joy in watching as they pounded 300 yard drives down the middle. The pro just smiled and said, "Play from any tee you like!"

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:  Your question at the top is a fundamental one and one that goes unanswered most of the time.  I've weighed in on that before, but I think I'll wait a while and see what others think this time before responding.

Doug and Lou:  The "social stigma" works basically as follows:  the back tee players may feel it's some form of torture to drag other guys back too far, but it's also rude to insist on playing on a different set of tees than everyone else because you're better.  There is much less social interaction if everyone is going to a different tee, especially if you're not riding together in a cart; play is slower because the forward-tee guys have to stay out of the way and then run up and hit; and it's hard to have a good game because there are always a couple of holes where the forward tee is relatively much easier or much harder than the back tee.

As I said, I'd rather design the course so the good player can move up a set and not have to lay up all day.  But at the same time, I understand what you all are saying about being forced to play a course at 6200 yards if you're a long hitter, as they often do in Scotland.  Your problem is simply this:  in Scotland and Ireland golf is either recreation or a competitive sport.  It's not all about the individual; in fact the individual has no standing at all.

[ForkaB]

...in Scotland and Ireland golf is either recreation or a competitive sport.  It's not all about the individual; in fact the individual has no standing at all.

Very well said, Tom.  That is exactly how it is.

Of course, whether or not Dornoch or TOC or Ballybunion or whatever are "worth" the full whack green fee when one is "forced" to play from 6000 yards or so, is a matter of choice.  I think they are (most of the time), but I can also see how those who view golf in terms of "it's all about me" might well be disappointed.

[JohnV]

Tom, you said you are thinking of coming up with a mix of tees for use at Lost Dunes.  This can easily be accomodated in the handicap system.  If this is going to be a permanent option, just get the local association to do a rating from there.  If they have the numbers already for the various tees, they can do a  rating for that set of tees without even having to visit the course.  There was a thread about courses in Georgia that are doing this that I started in November.

I also like mixing and matching tees when I play.  Even if the set of tees you choose haven't been rated as a group, there is no reason you can't do this and still post a score for handicap.

If you look in chapter 5 of the USGA Handicap manual there are tables for men and women on how to create a course rating for an unrated set of tees.  This can be found on the USGA Website under the Handicapping section.  As an example, if I played a course that was 250 yards longer than the rated one, I would add 1.1 to the Course Rating an 3 to the Slope and post my score using those numbers.

I remember playing Carnoustie on back to back days in 1988.  The first day we were handed score cards for the back tees and par was 72.  The second day we were handed cards for the forward tees and par was 70.  There is no reason a course couldn't have specific cards for specific tee setups when it has a lot of tee boxes and just give out the ones that are being used that day.

[JohnV]

Bill,  Probably close enough in most, if not all, cases.

[JSlonis]

Dan,

We played a few of the courses you mentioned above, like you, we were able to play the back tees at Cruden Bay & Lossiemouth as well.  We didn't have the same luck at Royal Dornoch.  We played 36 holes at Dornoch on the same day.  After the completion of our first round we asked if we could play the second round from the back tees and were told NO.  My caddy also asked the starter, explaining that two of us shot under par on the first round and we were still told NO.  I'm not sure of the reasoning, as it was not that busy later in the day.  It didn't diminish the great day we had, Dornoch was fabulous, but I would have liked the challenge of playing the course from all the way back.

[THuckaby2]

As a way of example for multiple threads... just a curiousity, but worth noting...

Brian Gracely and I played golf yesterday afternoon.

We took a cart, because the course in question is a VERY strenuous walk and for me walking would have been a chore and taken away from the fun, rather than adding to it.

We took 3.5 hours to play, and it only took that long because we caught up to the world on the back nine.  That being said, the chat was non-stop, and very enjoyable.

We played a strange mix of tips and one set up, just playing whichever tee I felt was more fun (it's a course I am very familiar with and it was Brian's first-time seeing it).

I feel safe in saying we both had a blast.  I was also able to get out of there in time to pick up my kids and remain in their good standing.  I'm gonna post the score I achieved using sort of an average, like redanman says...

So what part about this was bad?

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Michael Whitaker asks:

Is the reason for different sets of tees:

1) to make the course increasingly more difficult, or

2) to try and give varying skill levels the opportunity for relatively the same experience.


I hope that it is both, though 2) may be more of an ideal than a possilbility (the range of skills is too wide to be able to accomplish this by length and angle alone).  Multiple tees allow for more options and flexibility in course setup, which hopefully results in greater variety and interest.  Unfortunately, it seems that many courses do not recognize this and move the tees around but a few yards.  Turf issues are probably also a factor in having multiple tees.

I've been accused of being a "rugged individualist" by my some of my left leaning friends here and elsewhere.  Though I am not feeling very rugged these days, I still fail to understand the social stigma attached to playing multiple sets of tees within a group.  I was under the impression that we play golf for the challenge and enjoyment of the game. Multiple tees at varying angles are built precisely to allow this in a sport where there is such a wide range of abilities.  Wouldn't it be better to check the ego at the door and be truly pro-choice?

BTW, what is the proper ettiquette when half of the group wants to play them back and the other half insists on the fronts?  Should the longer hitters always defer?

I am being repetitive, but this is important to me because I generallty don't have the opportunity to play the better courses more than once or twice.  TOC, PBGL, and the Golf Club for example, from the shorter tees do not reflect the design intent, and I probably don't have the appreciation of these because I was unable to play the courses in their entirety.  I do believe that taking the driver and longer irons on the approaches out of the players' hands does not promote fun, interesting golf.   I also think that it is beneficial and enjoyable to play with different people, regardless of relative abilities.



 

[Michael Whitaker]

Huck - There's nothing "bad" with with "having a blast" on a golf course. That's supposed to be the point of the game.

Tom and Rich's posts hit the nail on the head... it's the "all about me" attitude that so many of us have about golf that creates a lot of our problems over here. I hadn't thought of it in exactly this way before reading their comments, but that one simple concept can be used to explain numerious issues discussed on this site.

Tom - One of the worst days I ever experienced on a golf course was at one of my favorite courses, Grandfather Mountain. One of my host's guests insisted in a good-natured way that we play the "tips." GF had recently stretched the course with some new tees and he wanted to "see it all." To make matters worse, this was in early May... it had been raining the day before, the air was cool and the ground was soft and damp. Well, this guy had obviously been through this routine many times before because he was an expert in goading and/or shaming us all into moving to the back tees. Well, right from the first tee shot you could understand why he wanted to move back there... he wasn't just long, he was "Tiger-Long... and, he wanted to show off his driving prowess. So, all day we oohed and aahed as he blasted his tee shots (which is what he wanted) while we slogged it along as best we could, struggling to reach fairways and greens. It was so obvious that three of us were not having much fun, but "Jumbo" never once offered to move up and give us some relief, he just kept telling us how much he loved his new driver... or, asking us whether we thought he could reach a hazard off the tee... or, anything that might keep us involved in his game. It was definitely an "all about me" day and one of the most flagrant examples of rudeness I have ever had to endure.

[THuckaby2]

Interesting thoughts, Michael.  At least a little of yesterday's round entailed some "all about me" attitude... that is, I'm sure the course management didn't want us playing whatever tees we felt like - some were on pads with no markers - but in this case it was very uncrowded, the turf was perfect (ie in no need of any recovery time), so I felt ok about it.  But my actions yesterday do make me wonder... taking this too far is the all about me attitude which most definitely NOT a good thing.

So I'm with Rich most definitely re these UK courses that tell you to play up tees.  I guess it's easy for me to say because I don't hit the ball far enough for any tees to NOT be a challenge, but still I'd sooner not play than demand to play back tees at these places.  My thinking is it's their club, their rules, I'm damn lucky to be there at all so it would be very rude to demand anything really.  Your round at GM would be painful for me... man that was tough to even read!

I'm not saying any of the posters here made such demands, btw, and I also absolutely understand a scratch player / big hitter wanting to play the tips and deserving to do so, and feeling a bit short-changed if he's not allowed such.  That makes sense.  But feeling that way and doing something about it (ie making demands) are too different things and thankfully I'm not reading instances of the latter!

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Ouch, Michael!  Sorry that we "made" you play the back tees at BM.  I hope that that and Pinion Hills weren't your second and third worst golfing experiences.

It is hard to do, but put yourself in the long hitter's shoes.  He too wants to enjoy the experience, which, for him, hitting 2 iron-pitching wedge may not do it.  Did he force you to go to the back tees or was it an ego thing on your part?  What did the sponsoring member want to do?  Maybe the guy was self-absorbed- not an uncommon human frailty among good, successful people- but perhaps he is trying to enjoy the opportunity to the fullest in a game that no matter how some of you may want to couch is, is at its very essence, an INDIVIDUAL sport.

We had this problem with our large golf group at my home course.  Some of the older fellows wanted and needed to play the forward tees, but would not do so unlessl everyone else did the same thing.  Personally, I like inter-generational relationships and playing with players of varying abilities (who play relatively fast).

We resolved this problem eventually by convincing the shorter hitters to play from the set of tees where they can compete from, and it hasn't been an issue since.  It does not take longer to play multiple tees, perhaps a little more vigilance.  It also does nothing at all to diminish the social interaction.  Hopefully, when we get to the tee we are playing golf and not trading gossip.  In comparison, carts do far more to disrupt conversation, though they generally allow you to reach the 19th hole quicker where some serious socializing can take place.

BTW, I do get a kick at Goodale in his egalitarian "we"
mode.  Kind of like Huck, a wolf in sheep's clothe ready to pounce on the unsuspecting victim.

[Tom_Doak]

Lou:  Just a suggestion ... at one of your next outings, ask the superintendent to move up the tees at some of the holes so everyone can play a "mixed" set.  Keep some of the long 4's back so the tigers can still wail on the driver, but put others up so your distance doesn't matter so much there.  It will make the competition more competitive ... which I'm sure the seniors would enjoy more than playing a different set of tees ... and you might find that your game would benefit most from improvement from 120 yards in.

[Michael Whitaker]

Lou - Although I was a little nervous about it at first, I had no problem at all with playing the back tees at BM or Pinion. I was really curious about the altitude effect and I truly enjoyed meeting you guys and watching you tackle the courses. The back tees did not feel that intimidating to me at either of those courses... I don't hit it very far, but I didn't feel completely overwhelmed like I have on some local courses at 7000 yards. The distance really wasn't a problem and I felt like I had a chance to do OK... I just didn't execute very well. We played one of the forward tees at Twins Warriors and I found it much more distance intimidating than any of the other courses we played. I will have to say, however, I really enjoyed playing up a tee at Paa-Ko Ridge... it felt right for me.

My problem with the guy at Grandfather is he was just a selfish, rude person who insisted on us being focused on him and his game. He was just a showoff. You guys were exactly the opposite... you all went out of way to take interest in how the other players in your group were doing and tried to be encouraging whenever possible. I had a great time every day!

[Michael Whitaker]

Huck - I should have indicated that my second paragraph was a new thought... I didn't mean the "all about me" attitude applied to your mixed tee outing. I think what you did is great and don't have a problem with it at all. As a matter of fact I would like to see more of it... especially with my golfing group! I'm trying to enjoy the "game" of golf more and spend less time focusing on "my" score, and "my" prowess, and "my" ego. When I came home from the course the first thing my wife used to ask is, "what did you shoot today?" She really didn't have to ask... she already knew by just looking at me. Now, she only asks, "did you have a good time today," because I'm trying not to let my score completely control whether I have a good time or not. Golf has become much less stressful, I'm having a lot more fun, and my handicap has gone down 25%! The perfect trifecta!

[THuckaby2]

Michael - that is a perfect trifecta and to me is VERY cool!  Good on ya, mate.

As for applying the all-about-me attitude to tee hopping yesterday, that was just me thinking out loud, that's all.  I can see that being an abuse if it's taken too far... That is, playing tees that are closed - they're likely closed for a good reasons - etc.  That's not what we did yesterday and oh yes, it added to yesterday's fun... But it sure can be abused so that ought to be kept in mind.  Just food for thought, that's all.

But it's interesting - I too have fought the "all about score" attitude for a long time and I guess I have achieved a certain peace, where it doesn't matter as much.  Still, it's sure easy to come home happy after a good round than a bad one!  But I think you sure are on the right road, or at least we are travelling the same road, right or wrong.  There are lots of ways to achieve happiness in this game and score result really should be just one.

Right?

BTW, you know what else really helps with this?  Lower expectations.  Sounds obvious, I know, but if you don't expect a good score, you're never disappointed.  I've come to realize I rarely practice and really don't play all that much so why SHOULD I achieve good scores or win most matches?  

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Huck,

We've interacted enough to know well enough that I am not afraid to ask the question.  If I am invited to play at a private club and I sense that the member wants for everyone to play the same forward tees, then I do it without a fuss.  If I am asked or given the option, I'll go to the backs as long as it doesn't ruin it for the rest of the group.  At a public course where I may be grouped with strangers, I generally just say  let's play the ball where we want to.

The Scotland situation is a little different because guys like Goodale can play the tournament tees during the weekly competitions, whereas us once-in-a-lifetime types may have that single chance.  I did not ask at TOC because the Trust is so uptight anyways.  Though I don't think that turf condition is a big issue on all but the par 3s, you are right that it is their course and no one is holding a gun to my head to fork over the 110 lbs.  The unfortunate thing is that the costs to them (the Trust and other owners/operators) to be more accomodating is so marginal relative to the enjoyment and appreciation derived by the player.  Not that the owners of PBGL really need my money, but one of the main reasons that I have not played the course the last couple of times I've been out there is because the way I was treated the first time.  Hitting a 9 iron and a wedge to nos. 9 and 10, respectively, is not what the course is all about.

I still would like to better understand the issues weighing against playing mixed tees within the group.  Maybe the esteemed Sir Huntley and Dr. Childs, both paragons of good manners and proper behavior, can educate me on this subject.  You can take a whack at it too, Huck, if you like.  

[George Pazin]

Don't worry about it.  I can screw it up or ace it from anywhere.  

Interesting (and funny) comment.

The biggest "problem" I see with multiple tees is how you deal with mid to high handicappers that are plenty long. Before my recent struggles, I hit the ball as long or longer than most normal golfers. My short game and iron accuracy kept me from scoring decently; that and the fact that when I missed with a driver, I really missed - instant penalties incurred. Honestly, I don't think it much mattered what tees I played from.

JohnV & I have played from different tees many times, but then, he's a good and understanding playing partner. He is also frequently playing an effectively shorter course at the longer tees, given our relative length differences, which just illustrates more of the shortcomings of multiple tees. I also played from different tees during many of the NM rounds. Frankly, I'd be a helluva lot more embarassed playing like crap on the same tees than sucking it up and playing the proper tees.

[THuckaby2]

Lou, this is all good by me and you make a good point about wanting to maximize the enjoyment of once in a life-time chances.  Still it must be kept in mind that these are after all private clubs and we're lucky to be playing them at all.  In the end, my beef is not against well-mannered gents like yourself who would politely ASK to play back, bur rather those who would rudely DEMAND to do so.  I think there's a big different between these two types.

As for different folks playing different tees in the same group, I sure see nothing wrong with that other than for me personally it's not as much fun.  But you do understand how the social aspects are more important to me than most!

TH

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