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Willie_Dow

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2003, 10:32:56 PM »
The World Book Encyclopedia: List of Games - Acrostic, Anagram, Backgammon, Badminton, Billiards, Card Game, Charade, Checkers, Chess, Chinese Checkers, Croquet, Darts, Dominos, Hopscotch, Horseshoe Pitching, Jacks, Kite, Mah Jongg, Marbles, Palindrome, Pall-Mall, Quoits, Rebus, Riddle, Shuffleboard, Stilts, Table Tennis, Tag, Top

ForkaB

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2003, 04:13:56 AM »
Willie

I'm not so sure about "tag." >:(

It's formlessness and dependence on the vagaries of nature (human and otherwise) seem to make it a prime candidate for Behrean sanctification as a "sport."

TEPaul

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2003, 04:41:21 AM »
"TEPaul - When you say his articles had numerous iterations do you mean that he repeatedly rewrote and republished the articles to refine his thoughts?"

Michael:

It would appear so as he seems to have published articles of the same basic interconnected theme or philosophy for perhaps thirty years.

Whether the actual subject involved "principles" of golf architecture, "art" in golf architecture, the use of sand, the use of penalty in golf architecture, handicapping in golf, the "spriit" of golf and architecture, distance in golf. blindness, etc, the very same theme and philosophy interconnects all his articles over a number of decades.

Perhaps the articles were just edited to fit space or something but the longest iterations of each article are the most interesting and revealing particularly since most are in the a-priori (cause to effect) method he uses to attempt to support his premises and conclusions which always seem to end up with what he refers to as "The Natural School of golf architecture" or sometimes "Permanent golf architecture".

But articles of the same titles were sometimes slightly different in apparent rewrites although the points and premises are always the same.

Of course from what we can tell from the ensuing 50-80 years no one of consequence (USGA/R&A,etc) seemed to be listening to him. From a good deal of the renaissance sentiment on this website and certainly elsewhere today they probably should have been listening. A lot of the water of the dangers to the game he wrote about and warned against has definitely flowed under the bridge in those ensuing 50-80 years.

Stephen Brown

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2003, 12:17:47 PM »


Mr. Paul-

I cannot explain how much I have been enjoying the "debate" regarding Max Behr's writings.  It has been only three days since I was able to print the articles from MSU's website.  It appears to me that you may be the resident "Behr Expert".  

I am not sure why recently this has become such a hot topic.  Could you please explain to some of us neophytes what is/are the effect(s) that Max Behr's writings have had on Golf Course Architects, both past and present ?

Stephen Brown

TEPaul

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2003, 01:32:14 PM »
StephenB;

The expert on Max Behr is Geoff Shackleford, although I don't know that he'd call himself a resident here.

You asked;

"....what is/are the effect(s) that Max Behr's writings have had on Golf Course Architects, both past and present?"

Good question. Probably the biggest effect he had or has on architects both past and present is to make most of them scratch their heads hard and say things like:

"What is it this man's talking about exactly....?"

or,

"Wow, this guy might be deep, must be deep--I just wish I could understand him better to figure out how deep!"

or, in a letter by Hugh Wilson (architect of Merion) to Piper or Oakley (something along the lines of);

"Have you read Max Behr's remarks about Merion? I think the man may be completely brilliant but until today I didn't realize what I was doing at Merion East was helping to save the world." (apparently Behr had said something remarkably glowing about Merion East in his usual semi-inscrutable prose!).

;)

But seriously, it's sort of hard to say what the effect of his writing was on architects past and present but I think GeoffShac has some idea on that from a few things he may have come across relatively recently. Apparently Behr may have had a far larger effect or influence on Mackenzie than most have known. Perhaps on Bob Jones too.

C.B. Macdonald was a friend and perhaps an admirer but C.B once made a reference to some who think way too much on certain things about architecture and I believe he was referring to Max.

On present day architects I doubt his writing has had much effect simply because it's never really been compiled. But thankfully I think Geoff Shackelford plans to do something about that. What's probably best of his writing on architecture, though, is these so-called "essays" that were basically written in the 1920s with that noticeable interconnecting theme which is probably his overall philosophy on golf and architecture.

I'd say the most recognizable thing he may have left with architecture in an actual concept sense is what's become known as Behr's "Line of Charm" concept. Basically that concept involved putting a bunker exactly in what Behr referred to as the golfer's "line of instinct"--that being almost exactly where he instinctively wanted to hit the ball, most likely on a direct line to the green or flag or obvious target.

With a bunker, for instance, in such a place Behr felt the golfer was more inclined to challenge it or at least have to deal with it by playing over it, on either side of it or short of it--basically up to four different opitons and it really can't get much better than that strategically.

Behr's underlying idea on this was to induce a golfer not just to think but also to feel he was really thinking for himself--finding and formulating his very own strategies instead of what some architect dictated to him with one choice for reward and the rest failure type of architecture--ie "shot dictation" architecture--or "down the middle only" type architecture.

With his highly strategic philosophy tailored to a golfer's very own choices, logically Behr believed in extremely wide fairways and he basically didn't much believe in rough. His concept was that strategic architecture was all that was needed to create risks and rewards. His feeling on hazards were they should be there more to inspire a feeling of temptation, challenge and potential exhileration in a golfer and less of a feeling of potential penalty and defeat.

Behr didn't like what we've come to call "architectural dictation". He felt an architect to do his job properly had to somehow create in a golfer a feeling of freedom of expression to do his own choosing which would allow him greater exhileration in success (reward) and also less criticism in failure.

Behr very well may have coined the term "Natural School of Architecture". If he didn't he certainly used it as a general description of all the things he thought golf architecture should be and do.

PS;

As I mentioned above Behr was apparently a far greater influence on Bob Jones's thinking on golf architecture than most have known and it has recently come to our attention that Jones's famous line was not "Golf is just a game"--it was, in fact----"Golf is not just a game, it's a sport!"  ;)


« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 01:45:00 PM by TEPaul »

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2003, 02:00:04 PM »
Most games have some sort of board or deck.  A sport usually has paremeters but not a specific path of following through from move to move.  For instance football or soccer consist only of boundaries.  

Whether you 'buy' that argument or not, golf is unique in that it combines it's field of play with a game board of sorts.  A deck of 18 separate puzzles that might be solved in any number of ways.  Each puzzle consists of implied boundaries but no specific path of travel.  It could be said that the greatest courses imply the least specific path of travel (sport) allowing for the greatest number of strategic solutions to the puzzle(game).  

In part the game flourished with the rich because of the size of the gameboard.  Afterall, chess is a small board that disallows a 'mine is bigger than yours' comparison.  It makes for the largest of legitimate pissing contests.  And I am not sure whether that is a sport or a game either but hesitate to begin that particular thread! 8)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 04:11:58 PM by Cos »

Bill Gayne

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2003, 02:47:02 PM »
Cos,

The "largest of the legitimate pissing contests" is still by far yachting. Especially in the Americas Cup class of boats. The board that it is played on can be as big as a circumnavigation of the globe and the cost of one syndicate dwarfs anything ever seriously contemplated in golf.

Yachting is also a game/sport that has a specific path to travel with multiple strategies.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2003, 03:39:45 PM »
billg, your point is well taken.  And after all is said and done if the yachtsman isn't careful he may not have a pot to piss in! ::)

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2003, 04:02:39 PM »
Golf, as a game is woefully easy. So easy, it isn't worth writting or even talking about. But as sport, it causes the endless talk that this site is just a small pimple on the loggorhea, worldwide.

Whoever mention the shared ball thang, really has a distinction there, and, certainly Max would agree that yatching is a sport. I was watching the worst bastardization of prime time television last night with..."celebrity poker" but as I watched in amazement at how bad it was, I was struck by how poker could qualify for Max's definition. All one needs is to consider human nature rather than natures nature. As it was explained to me by an expert, poker has little to do with the cards. It's about people. Golf is the same way in that it has little to do with getting the ball in the hole and more about people and their grey matter.

TEPaul

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2003, 07:16:12 PM »
billg said;

"Yachting is also a game/sport that has a specific path to travel with multiple strategies."

billg;

I have some very good information that C.B. Macdonald was entertaining the idea of getting heavily into yachting, probably out of NGLA. He might have had an America Cup yacht ultimately in mind but apparently he told his yacht syndicate (known as "the original principals") that he wasn't just interested in the yacht, he also wanted to design the yachting course and consequently he wanted to redesign both the Long Island Sound and the waves as well. He told the yachting syndicate that neither the Long Island Sound nor the waves had the proper type of NATURAL variety he wanted and that he would have to start from scratch and design and construct everything. A member of the yachting syndicate told C.B. that sounded vaguely arrogant towards Nature and something akin to "Jumping the Shark" and apparently C.B said;

"SHARKS!?? There're f... SHARKS out there on the L.I Sound??--well f...sharks. f...the Sound, f....the waves and I don't care how much money you people want to give me, f...your yachting syndicate too and he went back to fooling with the incline on the front of the Road Hole's green!

Matt_Ward

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2003, 07:19:35 PM »
Someone mentioned the aspect of "sweat" being an integral part of any sport. I would just mention to anyone familiar with golf that you will indeed "sweat" over any four foot putt of consequence.

Just ask Goosen, Langer or Hoch -- all three can tell you that. ;)

Bill Gayne

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2003, 07:50:52 PM »
TEPaul,

Very Funny ;D ;D

Willie_Dow

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2003, 08:48:49 PM »
billg  - you remind me of another yachtsman who has questions that need an answer.

The World Book Encyclopedia also included golf as an Individual Sport! But this was signed off by an author named Walter H. Gregg.

I would go with the unanswered!

Willie

Steve Lang

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2003, 10:02:09 PM »
 8)

hey y'all

aren't games fun?

aren't sports truly work?

don't games turn into sport when they get organized to see who's #1?

don't sports turn into gaming when opinions and $'s come out to play?

nature (fauna, flora, terra firma & aqua) makes games fun wherever they're played and makes sport unfare to the ill prepared for the elements


p.s. I saw the Chinese play ping pong-table tennis when they came over to play in the US in ~1970 or so.. they had game, they demonstrated the power of sport.


Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2003, 10:50:26 AM »
"A hybrid of game, sport, pastime and culture which involves the rituals, strategy, skill, psychology, practice and memorialization of preparing to hit, hitting and following a small white ball from a beginning point to an ending point over an outdoor course full of obstacles; and against a set standard, one’s self, an opponent, or a series of opponents; either as an individual or as part of a team, where the fundamental object is to hole the ball in the fewest number of strokes possible."

[from "ON COURSE"]

- - -

Also, "Golf is not a game or a sport, but a business transaction sought out over an area of awarded luck and encouraged misfortune. The unique aspect of this transaction is your client, which is nothing more than conditioned nature: A golf course."

[Forrest Richardson]
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2003, 12:32:06 PM »
Forrest, my friend;

A description of golf such as the one you just quoted is a bit like a description of how to move the various pieces in chess--something that's extremely simple to learn--probably shouldn't take anyone more than 15 minutes to understand. But after that what chess is really all about and what it can offer those that play it is a lifetime of fascination, possiblilities, soul searching, emotions---you name it. In that way golf is quite similar.

However, comparing something like Chess, as fascinating as it can be, to golf is actually an excellent example of the REASONS Max Behr was trying to make a distinction between golf as a "sport" as opposed to a "game". And when Behr did that in his "essays" regarding golf he in no way intended to denigrate the interest and value of "games".

His point was only that a "game" should be considered a wholly man-made recreation which of course chess is. In that he meant almost total standardization of the field of competition. In Chess's case there is complete and total standardization--no variation in chess boards or pieces whatsoever--as to how the game is technically played. Because chess is such it serves the intended purpose of almost completely isolating and completely highlighting the factor of skill. There's virtually no luck factor in chess, as there certainly is in another completely standardized "game" such as backgammon because of the added factor of the dice.

But in golf there is that added factor that sets it apart from a standardized game such as chess which completely and intentionally highlights the factor of skill. It is absolutely true that Behr meant to say that in golf the factor of skill should NEVER be isolated and highllighted to the extent of a completely man created game like chess.

Of course the added factor that would never allow golf to become a complete highlighting of skill is Nature and the luck, apparent unfairness, inequity and unpredictability of Nature's randomness--which of course is the opposite of standardization of the field of competition!

That alone, regarding Behr's distinction, is all that sets golf apart from "games" and makes it a "sport" in Behr's mind. That is all he meant to say. When Nature and its inherent randomness begins to lose its part in the equation or balance only then does golf begin to become more standardized and become less a "sport" and  more of a "game" (in Behr's opinion).

Again, he never meant to reclassify all recreations into a distinction between sports or games only that to serve the purpose of what he called the "Natural School of Golf Architecture" that golf architecture did not need to become more standardized by continually reducing Nature's part in it.




Joe Hancock

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2003, 12:35:09 PM »
Ping Pong would be more fun to watch in a 30 MPH cross wind...

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2003, 12:46:31 PM »
I'm not sure you can — or would want to — classify golf as game or sport. No point.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2003, 01:39:21 PM »
"I'm not sure you can — or would want to — classify golf as game or sport. No point."

Forrest;

Ordinarily I'd completely agree with you on that--and even in the context of the title of this thread I'd agree with you. But in the context of Max Behr and his essays he made the distinction between golf the sport and golf the game only to make a necessary point in his premise in those essays. And that point was that to be considered a "sport", in his opinion, golf needed to maintain that factor of the randomness of Nature in the playing of it. He never meant to say that he thought golf should no longer be called a "game" by everyone and should henceforth be called a sport. He was only trying to make a point in this essay---and so he made that distinction for that reason.

The way some of the posts on here are going it's sort of like discussing if the thing we all have in our kitchens ahould be called an icebox or a refrigerator or if the thing we have in our garage should be called an automobile or a car. It really doesn't matter because no one's recommending that they change, no one's saying the necessary part of Nature in them should not be reduced.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2003, 01:46:26 PM »
Tom- How about quantifying what is being said, albeit subliminally. And is that?

even in an "all world" theory world, quality gca cannot be obtained, constructed or conceived without reverence to the fundamentals Behr defines.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2003, 07:01:15 PM »
Behr's writing is on target. I take no exception with it, or for that matter any other opinions. Mine remains.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 07:01:32 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff Fortson

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2003, 09:16:54 PM »
If sweat were the main criteria for obtaining "sport" status would Air Traffic Controlling be the "Mother of All Sports"?


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2003, 10:47:10 PM »
Air traffic controlling is a sport, isn't it? Thought I read that Athens will host a demonstration event. If it goes well it will take a place in future games.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2004, 09:18:50 AM »
Jeff and Forrest:

I can't imagine what air traffic controlling should be called other than about the most potential "hotseat" experience imaginable.

I wonder if either of you happened to see that hour-long TV program about a year ago on America's air-traffic controllers relating to the day of 9/11/2001?

First of all, I found it sort of hard to believe that the air-traffic controllers would've even agreed to do a program like that related to that day but it was eerily fascinating, to say the least.

Those men and women who are air-traffic contollers, it's not hard to see are about the calmest people under pressure I've ever seen. The program almost completely concentrated on the air traffic controllers of the Newark airport.

How the lack of communication with one airplane which seemed to them some odd anomalie soon became four odd anomalies and the resigned realization that this was somehow going to be potentially their worst nightmare! The wrench for the Newark controllers was that they had released one of those planes a mere ten minutes before US air space was completely shut down and the fact that if only the order came through eleven minutes earlier they could have held it on the runway!

And then to a bit later in the morning when they could track those planes on their screens but couldn't communicate with them and most poignantly the one they could see on their screens turn out of the south and head north at NYC---something that's not ever a flight pattern. As it neared NYC directly past the Newark airport they all left their screens and went to the east side of the tower and watched this plane fly by at 600MPH---wide open warp speed that commercial airliners rarely if ever will go.

These controllers said it was going so fast the wings were dipping and weaving in an attempt to line the plane up on the World Trade Tower as they watched it crash.

The program was some juxtaposition for those air traffic controllers of both extreme sadness and tragedy combined with pride as the US Air Traffic Controller managed to get 5000 airplanes all over America out of the sky in stacked succession and onto the ground wherever they could in less than two hours--something even in retrospect they did not realize they would ever be able to do.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 09:22:27 AM by TEPaul »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Golf A Sport Or A Game?
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2004, 01:27:43 PM »
A few years ago I arrived in Phoenix from Newark and reclaimed my truck in the garage. I no more than turned on the radio when I heard a story about an incident that took place the night before about a decending 757 approaching Phoenix which was directed to "descend and maintain 3,000..."

Unfortunately the controller issuing the instruction was new to Phoenix and ordered this about 10 miles too soon. The Superstition Mountains east of Phoenix peak at just over 3,000 feet! The report noted that the on-board computer squawked "PULL UP — PULL UP" loud enough that passengers heard the warning. The aircraft came about 400 feet from the mountain.

I drove home with several reflections on how fragile we remain.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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