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DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2003, 11:25:34 PM »
Why do you feel that golf should not be about being able to hit the ball and chip and putt better than the other guy?  Why do you steadfastly insist that a random element of luck must be the critical element of the game?  Why should golf be any different than bowling (despite all the quirky things going on in bowling alleys lately (pardon me, bowling "centers"), I don't see lane imperfections that throw balls offline being one of them), tennis (and don't tell me about Wimbledon; a bad grass bounce or two has never ever decided a single tennis match because they play so many points that these bounces become statistically insignificant), archery (have they suddenly added "random, sudden gust of wind" machines to the competition and I somehow missed it?).  Hell, even the game that in your perfect, Platonic form world would be the most similar to golf  --- chess --- has NOTHING, ZERO, NADA to do with random elements of luck!

So let me get this straight, you want golf to be more like bowling, tennis, archery, and chess?   You are making my case for me!   Golf shouldnt emulate these because unlike golf, bowling, tennis, and chess are all boring.  People dont bowl for the game, they bowl for the beer.  Tennis is a dead.  Archery???  You think I think Golf should be more like Chess?   When it comes to my views on golf you are as wrong as could be on almost every count.  

A little randomness in these sports would certainly help them, not hurt them.  Imagine if Chess was played as in History of the World, Part I, only slightly more P.C.  I guarantee the game would have much higher participation levels.  

Quote
Bjorn Borg will beat me at Wimbledon no matter how many dead grass bounces he gets.  But you're calling for me to be able to beat him every so often.  That's preposterous!  And I need to know why you would even want this....

You must have skipped over the first three quarters of my last post.  Try reading above the part where I am taking shots at Matt.  Particularly where I say:

Regarding the passage you cited, dont get your panties in a bunch.  You've got to take it in the context of my response to Matt's initial post.  While it may be absurd, it is less so than Matt's position, and apparently yours.  
. . .
Despite the exaggeration for emphasis you quoted, I am not talking about you or me beating Tiger Woods through luck.  I am just saying the golfers rarely if ever get the exact result they deserve.  There are just too many other outcome determinant factors.  And that is the way it should be.  That is what makes the game exciting.  

Havent you ever won or lost a match on a fluke?  That's what makes the great post-round-grillroom-story you are always after, not perfect contact or hitting a straight ball.  


So I am not saying that you should be able to beat Borg or Tiger or anyone else.  Just that you and everyone else rarely get the deserved outcome.



Quote
Dave, the question still stands:  what is the actual rationale behind your view that golf should hinge on luck, rather than skill.

I dont hold the view that golf should always hinge on luck, rather than skill.  I do hold the view that 'rub of the green' is an integral part of golf, and that golf is much worse off with less of it.

Why?  Because golf with a random element is more fun than golf without.  You dont even need a course for your luckless golf only a big, uniform target.  
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 11:27:57 PM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2003, 12:32:19 AM »
 DaveM's theory is that luck should be so important that the lucky bad player should beat the good player every so often.  When was that ever the case?  I'd like just one example of a player who won because he got all the bounces, not because he hit it better, chipped it better and putted it better than everybody else.  Just one.  

That isnt my theory.  But examples of winning and losing due to luck abound.  The Mize example-- you say it was skill until it luckily went in, but it was the going in part that won him a major.  Couples' ball hanging on the steep bank at the Masters-- without that luck who knows?  Had Van de Veld's 2 iron hit a spectator instead of a small metal brace, he'd have likely taken a drop, chipped it on, and won the Open by 2 strokes.  Sure he hit a bad shot, but he also got unlucky.  

Thomas_Brown

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2003, 12:39:34 AM »
I thought this topic would be dead by now.
Isn't luck different from fair?

The e.g.'s I cited were more along the lines of what design features are fair vs. unfair.

This thread is now on how lucky specific shots were that won major championships.  That's a different ball of wax to me.
All of those "lucky" shots were fair.

I agree w/ the idea that golf is interesting because of variety and randomness, but I've seen several unfair setups(and I haven't qualified for a major -yet).

Tom

THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2003, 09:10:37 AM »
Tom Huckaby:

I'm not sure where to draw the line on where we agree or disagree, but I wouldn't go for a 99/1 split in favor of skill. The wto players who make it to something like the finals of the US Am are obviously quite skilled. But, ever with a 36 hole match, luck and randomness may prevail - if even by that one and critically decisive winning shot.

Sounds good to me, Tim.  Of course my counter to this is that over a 36 hole match between even players luck and randomness MAY prevail, but far more often, skill is what carries the day.

But no need to go around this circle any further!  I do appreciate your explanations, as this all makes much better sense to me now.

TH

A_Clay_Man

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2003, 09:26:58 AM »
The e.g.'s I cited were more along the lines of what design features are fair vs. unfair.



I've seen several unfair setups(and I haven't qualified for a major -yet).

Tom-  These two statements are two different questions. Unfair features or set-up on those features? Going back to the 14th at PB, would you say the hump is an unfair feature or just when it's pinned?

I see it as normative, it is what it is. If the committee wants to use that unfair pin location for one of the four days, it's that way for everyone, ergo normative. Now, if the committee wanted to be fairer to those who follow, they could ask for the greenspeeds to be slowed that day. Added an element of another awareness test on the golfer. But these types of inconsistencies are frowned upon by the subjective mind of the golfers who feel compelled to complain. (usually a real good golfer)

Conclusions formulated and based on subjective (usually adverse) experiences, have little value and no place in the evaluation of the sport or it's fields. That's my view on much of the "spirit" I've witnessed from this sport. You?

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2003, 01:14:05 PM »
And my point with Bowling, etc. is that they all suffer for the lack of random elements.  Take archery, shooting at a target under controlled conditions, and compare it to hunting bear with a bow and arrow.  The latter is much more dependent upon random variables, and quite a lot more exciting because of it.    

Your missing the point with the major examples.  Just about every result of shots of any distance has something to do with luck.  Think in terms of standard deviation.  At distance, the difference between shots a few feet (or even a few yards) apart is statistically negligible.  But a few feet or a few yards can and often does make all the difference -- under the lip or in the bottom of the bunker, in the rough or out, in the water our out, down the bank or up, in the hole or not.

Tom Brown.  Luck comes into play because Matt started out this thread by suggesting that a course should consistently hand out the results that the shot deserves.  But because of the random element this isnt really the case.

Also Tom, there is a difference between course set-up and course architecture.      

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2003, 01:41:22 PM »
fair: A regional event, usually held annually, consisting of displays of farm and home products, and various competitions and entertainments: a state fair

unfair: Not a regional event, usually held annually, consisting of displays of farm and home products, and various competitions and entertainments: not a state fair

Defining unfair in golf course architecture implies favoring one type of golf over another. C.B. Macdonald did this on a few early courses, strongly favoring golfers who hit it left to right. Jack Nicklaus early in his career was often accused of designing courses that strongly favored his type of game.

Today we are faces with many unfair courses by that definition. Too many of today's designers favor the physical over the mental and with courses getting longer and longer, they favor the long hitter.

The ideal course should have a healthy mix of holes, sometimes favoring the physical, sometimes favoring the mental. Random bounces, blind shots, sloped greens, small greens on long holes, etc... all of these can be used to mess with a player's mind and give benefit to the more mentally prepared golfer.

Obviously the amount of test on each side is subject to judgment, similar to amount of holes that favor ground game over aerial, left to right over right to left, etc...

Unfortunately those that spend the majority of their time developing the physical game at the expense of the mental have convinced the golf world that testing the mental game is unfair and the golf world has bought into this hoax. The game as a purely physical activity doesn't have nearly the charm and fun of the old game.

It would be nice if those that are afraid of the mental game could go off and perform their physical game somewhere other than on golf courses, a poor choice for their activity. Golf courses are living and will never be entirely fair to the physical-only golfer. Long-driving champions have found an alternative, now if only the rest of you would also and stop messing with golf courses.

Happy New Year,
Dan King
Quote
"Golf is not a fair game, so why build a course fair?"
 --Pete Dye
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 01:55:34 PM by Dan King »

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2003, 02:33:27 PM »
  Hallelujah!  Dan, that's a corker.  

Main Entry: cork·er
Pronunciation: 'kor-k&r
Function: noun
Date: 1881
1 : one that corks containers (as bottles)
2 : one that is excellent or remarkable

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Inc.

If I may add a definition of my own...

3 : a statement that sums up and encompasses all necessary information and opinions and becomes the final and accepted solution for original question.

Have a content, warm and safe New Year, y'all.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2003, 07:26:04 PM »
Re: luck versus skill in golf and poker

Saying that because Tiger and Jack beat everyone in golf all the time must have been luck as a response to someone claiming luck is central to golf is missing the issue.  Luck is a two way street, despite the moaning of some golfers, it all evens out in the long run.  That's why I and everyone reading this is fully capable of beating Tiger on one or a few holes.  As you increase the number of holes our chances of doing so rapidly drop to zero, faster for those with lesser skill and slower for those with more, but inexorably towards zero for all of us well before you reach a 72 hole event.

Luck isn't all about getting a crazy bounce exactly the opposite you expect, making aces off OB stakes (or aces at all)  Its also little things, like having one of those days where all your chips and putts seem to just lip out versus one where you read it wrong and hit it crooked with the wrong speed, but the combination of mistakes ends up serendipitous time and time again.  Where your approaches find the right or wrong side of a ridge and run 20 feet further away or closer, or leave you with a straight in putt or something that's totally unmakeable because its right along the ridgeline.

Luck is certainly less a part of the game with today's equipment and courses, there's less of a place for luck when I carry my drive 95% of its distance and it sticks pretty much where I land it, and my irons drop-n-stop so that I can mark my ball and fix its mark without moving my feet.  But if you believe Pelz's claim that you can only make 50% of putts from 10 feet even if they are aimed and stroked identically -- he did robot testing to show this like 20 years ago, you have to admit luck has a much larger effect than people would like to admit.  Will luck give a 5 or 6 handicap like me a 66 on a tournament course?  Hell no, but it would probably be at least half the reason I might shoot a 74 there one day and a 89 the next.

As far as poker, 60% luck of the draw?  I'd argue that poker, at least in its no limit form, has less dependence on luck than golf does.  If you doubt that, enter a no limit tournament sometime.  You can even enter the World Series of Poker for as little as $100 or so in some of the satellite tournaments (where winners win the $20,000 entry fee to the big show)  Its an edifying experience, and quite a lot of fun too, if you can stand the smoke!  You may see some people who have no clue what they are doing winning for a while because they keep drawing pocket kings every third hand, but when cards quit coming they lose their stack damn quick.

The key for poker is that luck + skill is probably only 50% of the total.  The other 50% comes from the ability to read people, body language, voice inflections, etc.  Some people have it, some don't, and whether you are born with it or learn it as an infant/toddler, I don't think there's much any of us can do to improve there, and doesn't really correspond to anything required in golf.  I'm a pretty smart guy, and have a good memory, but since I've never been better than average at best at reading people, I could never make it to top echelons of poker, no matter how much I applied myself.  I'd probably have a better shot at applying myself at golf for the next 13 years and make the senior tour!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2004, 12:01:57 AM »
Shivas, what Doug said, except for the senior tour part.

The difference between archery and bow hunting is that bow hunting is an adventure.  You never know exactly what will happen, and you always have a chance of learning or experiencing something new.  Over time the hunter with the superior skill will end up with more success, but this doesnt diminish the excitement and adventure of each hunt.  (Actually I am exaggerating, I find bow hunting to be a bit of a bore.  But you get the idea.)  Your immediate result is dependent on much more than just your skill level.

That is (or was and/or should be) the beauty of golf.  Tiger Woods does have more skill, but on any given shot or hole, lots of things can happen.  Take losing his first tee shot at the Open last year.  Certainly a bad shot, and a stupid shot, but also unlucky.  Same with Love's bounce of the o.b. stake, and Sergio's sunken runner from 140.

If the golf courses you play resemble targets, then you are playing the wrong courses.   Is playing NGLA like shooting at a target?  Is everything at NGLA right in front of you like a target?   I must be a slow study, because it didnt feel like everything was in front of me . . .

 By the way, I play in CA so the hole may well be moving . . . or burning . . . or flooded . . . or sliding down the hillside.  

Happy New Year.  


Matt_Ward

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2004, 10:05:15 AM »
David M said:

"Luck comes into play because Matt started out this thread by suggesting that a course should CONSISTENTLY (my emphasis added) hand out the results that the shot deserves.  But because of the random element this isn't really the case."

ALSO ONE OTHER QUOTE ...

"I don't hold the view that golf should always hinge on luck, rather than skill.  I do hold the view that 'rub of the green' is an integral part of golf, and that golf is much worse off with less of it."

David -- my good friend from the left coast -- let's analyze the first statement. I NEVER said each shot must be consistently rewarded / penalized to the degree it was executed. WHAT I DID SAY was that a hole / course where such consistency is missing completely or for the greater part of the time you are playing it -- when the pay-off in terms of what you execute is turned on its head through luck, randomness, rub-of-the-green, you name it.

Let's also look at your second statement -- David, you have advocated that you want to play courses that are totally INCONSISTENT -- you have stated it a few times. Let me also add that I have added that "rub-of-the-green" is a part of the game no less than you have -- it's a matter of degree in my mind though. I just don't want to see any golf course design RELY exclusively or for much of the time upon such contrivances or rather take the place exclusively of skill. When that happens the issue of a hole or course being fair or unfair becomes quite clear and IMHO unnecessary.

Happy New Year sir ... ;)


Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2004, 01:12:14 PM »
 Golfing thought and execution must inherently be involved with the terrain or it is not golfing.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 01:13:24 PM by Slag__Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2004, 04:11:46 PM »
Matt,

1.  I think your accusing my posts with the words you mistakenly attribute to me.  I have never advocated courses which produce "totally inconsistent" results, despite the fact that you have attributed that view to me around a half dozen times.  

In fact, I have explained that on most or all courses, the better player will always have the advantage-- no matter how quirky.  That to me is consistency.  I even challenged you to come up with a single course or even hole where the better player is at a disadvantage, and you failed to name any such course or hole.  (Your two examples were woefully inadaquate, for reasons explained above.)  

I ask again:  Is there a single course or hole out there (or even shot for that matter) where the better player is at a disadvantage when compared to the worse player?

2. Your views on the desirability of consistency have changed quite a lot since the first thread!

Quote
I personally believe courses / holes that don't have some sort of "consistent" identifier with rewarding / penalizing shots can be "unfair." I neither expect, nor can one hope for 100% consistency in doling out the same result time after time after time but when a hole / course routinely fails to provide some sort of "consistent benchmark" you have a situation where unfairness can be more the "rule" rather than the exception.

Matt, I never said that I you advocated absolute consistency, but you certainly advocate more consistency than many courses currently offer.  

Happy New Year to you too.


Slag, I agree 100%.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 04:13:34 PM by DMoriarty »

Matt_Ward

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2004, 04:37:12 PM »
David M said, "Matt, I never said that I you advocated absolute consistency, but you certainly advocate more consistency than many courses currently offer."

David -- I have consistently advocated more CONSISTENCY than YOU seem to want. Big difference.

David you keep harping about the better player having the advantage -- well, hello -- isn't that the point in any sport that the better player has an advantage because his / her talent? Of course, the handicap system and the location of tee boxes can mitigate these advantages, and, in my mind, that's fine in order to create a level playing field between such players.

Let me also explain sound golf design IMHO incorporates some form of clarity in showcasing the aspects of a well played shot. Conversely, those same type of courses will do likewise for those shots not as well played. In sum -- the sound course provides some sort of benchmark / clarity that rewards skill. I never said -- repeat after me -- never implied, said, suggested, etc, etc, that golf be totally free of unfair situations or ones that delve towards luck / randomness, rub-of-the-green, etc, etc. Nor should golf be free of such instances.

The key is the preponderance of such involvements. I have played a fair share of courses that are poorly designed and were quite unable to DIFFERENTIATE between the well played shot and the ones that are played indifferently or poorly. Sometimes the harder courses fail on this score as well because they provide no opportunity for the well played shot to receive some consistent reward. I mentioned as an example the nature of how Carnoustie was prepared for the '99 BO as just one example.

My views have not changed one iota. Just read what I originally posted -- I have always stated that nothing in golf can be 100% guaranteed fair. Nor should it be. The issue becomes one of degree and I simply have consistently advocated (no pun intended!) that minimizing fair / unfair situations only serves to highlight the qualities of a hole / course. If other want to play those holes / courses where there is no benchmark / clarity regarding what I have just mentioned by all means they should knock themselves out and play them over and over again. Nothing more -- nothing less. ;)

Happy New Year sir ...  

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2004, 05:41:52 PM »
Matt Ward,

Can you handle when you stripe a shot down the middle and end up in a divot hole, while my little 200-yard tee shot ends up sitting perfectly?

Will you get mad at the golf gods when you hit a perfect long-drive and end up behind a mound and can't see the green, while I hit a low worm-burner that finds the turbo lane and bounds an extra 100 yards?

When my long putt I misread hits a spike mark and finds the hole while your short putt hits the same spike mark and goes awry will you be able to regroup and play the next hole well, or will you stew over your bad luck and swing to fast on the next tee?

Would you be upset if I used my course knowledge to know I should not aim for the pin on a hole and instead aim left and watch the ball feed toward the hole, while your shot you believe you hit perfectly ends up over the green into a hidden hazard? Could you put how upset you are behind you and play the next shot as well as you can or would you be too upset?

I can't help but believe from your posts that you would prefer golf was a purely physical game and all these mental tests were not part of it. Can you handle the mental tests?

In sum -- the sound course provides some sort of benchmark / clarity that rewards skill.

But it is you defining that skill. There is many different types of skill, both physical and mental. You wish to define skill as something you mastered and ignore skills that I can only guess you are not very good at.

Dan King
Quote
The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is and happens as it does happen. In it there is no value -- and if there where it would have no value.
 If there is value which is of value, it must lie outside all happening and being-so. For all happening and being-so is accidental.
 What makes it non-accidental can not lie in the world, for otherwise this would again be accidental.
 It must lie outside the world.
  --Ludwig Wittgenstein (Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus)

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2004, 06:28:37 PM »
Matt, Let me say again:
1.  I am not advocating complete inconsistency.  I never said I was.
2.  I am not accusing you of advocating complete consistency. I never said you were.

So please STOP:
1.  Accusing me of advocating complete inconsistency.  
2.  Defending yourself against an allegation I never made.  

This conversation doesnt have a prayer of even being interesting until you can manage to get by these two points.

David you keep harping about the better player having the advantage -- well, hello -- isn't that the point in any sport that the better player has an advantage because his / her talent?

Matt, I am not harping about any such thing.  Your concern is with making the game "more fair" to the better player (rewarding him while punishing everyone else.)  I am saying that because the better player has the advantage, the relative unfairness to the better player is nonexistent.  

Quote
Let me also explain sound golf design IMHO incorporates some form of clarity in showcasing the aspects of a well played shot. Conversely, those same type of courses will do likewise for those shots not as well played. In sum -- the sound course provides some sort of benchmark / clarity that rewards skill. . . .

The key is the preponderance of such involvements. I have played a fair share of courses that are poorly designed and were quite unable to DIFFERENTIATE between the well played shot and the ones that are played indifferently or poorly. Sometimes the harder courses fail on this score as well because they provide no opportunity for the well played shot to receive some consistent reward.

Matt, this is the crux of it.  You say you want courses to differentiate between the better player and everyone else.  But all courses differentiate between the better player and everyone else, because the better player has the advantage on every shot!  

So what you are really looking for is more of an advantage for the better player, or at least for who you consider to be the better player.  

So it isnt about fairness at all, is it?  It is about the fact that you like courses with clear rewards for great shots (as if great shots werent reward enough) and clear penalties for poor shots (as if a poor shot wasnt reward enough.)  You dont just want to beat the poor player, you want to demolish him!  

Its fine if you think this way.  But dont hide behind "fairness" to make your case.  

Anyway, glad to see that unlike the last post, you are again  admitting that what you are looking for is a consistent reward and a consistent penalty.  

later edit:  made one change, consistency to inconsistency in 2nd #1.  made no sense.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2004, 01:43:30 AM by DMoriarty »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2004, 08:02:00 PM »
Dave Moriarty:

I've never played any golf course in the United States or overseas that failed to reward the better golfer over everyone else. It would be interesting to see Matt Ward provide examples of those that do.

Dan King:

Your example of striping it down the middle and winding up in a divot brings to mind the first time I played Pebble Beach years ago. My partner and I came to #18 all tied in a match. He proceeded to hook two balls in Carmel Bay before hitting a third even worse! Then I tried to play a conservative 3 wood, but unfortunately came to rest about two inches behind that tree in the middle of the fairway.

I thought I hit my shot with "skill", but randomness took over and the match was lost.
Tim Weiman

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2004, 12:10:35 AM »
Matt - Why don't you answer David's question?

Is there a single course or hole out there (or even shot for that matter) where the better player is at a disadvantage when compared to the worse player?

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2004, 03:16:36 AM »
Dan King:

Your example of striping it down the middle and winding up in a divot brings to mind the first time I played Pebble Beach years ago. My partner and I came to #18 all tied in a match. He proceeded to hook two balls in Carmel Bay before hitting a third even worse! Then I tried to play a conservative 3 wood, but unfortunately came to rest about two inches behind that tree in the middle of the fairway.


Tim, gotta ask....what did your partner do with his third shot that was "even worse" than hooking the first two balls into Carmel Bay?  Did he hook the third into Carmel Bay with a double hit while asking for advice on the downswing or what?  :o
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Matt_Ward

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2004, 12:47:44 PM »
For those gentlemen (do you hear me Mike from Clemson!) who want an answer through specifics I provided a few previously to Mr. Moriarty. Unfortunately, his majesty did not accept my examples as valid ones. A pity.

What's doubly amusing and ironic is that I even cited a Rees Jones course as a classic example of such a situation. I guess I must still be a devoted Rees fan no matter what I say or post with some here on GCA. ;D

David M:

There's really no point -- in going forward. I simply said that great design provides clarity in what it wants from the golfer -- clearly the allocation of fair and unfair situations are a part of that dynamic. A hole or course that depends a great deal on being inconsistent and where randomness is front and center is really a poor one in my mind. Look, if you disagree with that so be it. End of story.

Enjoy the New Year sir and by all means get right out there and play all those inconsistent courses you seem to favor. Oh -- by the way -- send me a listing of them so I can be sure to miss them on my next visit to the left coast. ;D
 

CHrisB

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2004, 03:53:08 PM »
To the question
Quote
Is there a single course or hole out there (or even shot for that matter) where the better player is at a disadvantage when compared to the worse player?

Matt Ward referenced the examples he gave earlier in the thread:
(1) The hole at Hammock Dunes (Creek) where those playing from the back tee box face a full 240 yard carry, while those playing forward tee boxes face no carry,
(2) The 12th at Stone Canyon, a long par 4 where the fairway runs out at ~270, so that better players really can't driver for fear of going through, while lesser players can swing freely without worrying about going through,
(3) Carnoustie as it was set up for the 1999 Biritish Open, with very narrow fairways and thick rough combined with the wind making it a crapshoot to hit the fairways and have a reasonable shot into the green, and
(4) Holes with fronting hazards requiring aerial approaches but whose green is too firm or non-receptive to hold the shot, so that approaches invariably bound over the green into random recovery options.

Reject (1) because of playing 2 sets of tees; playing from the same tee, the better player will have an advantage.

Reject (2) because the only adjustment that the better player would have to make is to club down off the tee, using a club that should be easier to place where he wants in the fairway than his driver. I played Stone Canyon 2 weeks ago, and on #12 every advantage is to the player who can hug the right side near the bunkers and desert to get the angle into the green. Probably easier to achieve this with a 3-wood than driver. Even if both players hit to the identical spot in the fairway, the better player will still have the advantage from there on in. (2) is probably more of an example of reducing the better player's advantage rather than eliminating or reversing it.

Consider (3) as an example of a hole or course where the lesser player could have the advantage over the better player, because the element of luck that dictates what kind of approach (or lack thereof) the player will have into the green. Certainly it is not an example of the lesser player consistently having the advantage; at most, it becomes a toss-up. But remember, Van de Velde (almost) won that tournament because he was one of the few who consistently took driver off the tee, so that when when his tee shots failed to find the fairway, they left shorter recovery approaches. Combine this with (i) an unbelievable putting display and (ii) the "better" players erring in strategy and bitching about the "unfair" conditions, and you almost had a French champ (if not for the unbelievably bad luck of his approach on #18 hitting the stands in the very spot that it did!).

Reject (4) because better players will still have a better chance of holding the green than lesser players, and even if their approaches do go over the green, their higher shots with more spin (assuming they are better players and can control their ball flight) will stand a better chance of staying close to the green than the lower approaches with less spin that stand a better chance of going farther over the green, into the backs rather than centers of the bunkers, etc. Futhermore, even if the shots wind up in the same place, the better player will still have the advantage from there on in.

So there seem to be situations where the advantage of the better player is reduced, and some individual shots where the advantage is almost eliminated, but seemingly none where the advantage is reversed to the lesser player's favor.

The one situation where I as a decent player feel that a lesser player can beat me on a hole is on a long par-4 or short par-5 with considerable trouble around the green for those reaching in 2, but with a relatively straight-forward route, avoiding the trouble, for those who can't reach. In that situation I usually don't feel like laying up with a short iron if I have a long iron or fairway wood into the green, but if I don't pull off the shot it's a quick 6, while the lesser player plays around the trouble in 3 shots and makes an easy 5. But obviously this example assumes that I don't execute the shot; if we both execute I retain my advantage.

In any event, I don't think I've ever seen an "unfair" situation in golf where more skill (or mental toughness, which really is a skill as well) wouldn't have helped.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2004, 03:55:04 PM by ChrisB »

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2004, 08:08:00 PM »
Shivas,

In your zealousy to jump back in, I think you forgot to read my previous posts to you, and the thread in general.  I agree that no course exists where you or I (bad players) could beat Tiger Woods, for example.  In fact, that is precisely my point.   How can the better player call it unfair when he always has the advantage--  especially over multiple  holes/rounds?  

This is Matt's thread and it is his burden.  He thinks courses exist which are unfair to the better player, compared to the worse player.  I dont think any such courses exist, but am waiting for him to show me one.  

The answer, which makes Matt's point, is because golf is supposed to be a game of skill, not luck!  

Close but not quite.  Matt says golf is supposed to be a game of skill not luck, but laments that some courses dont reward skill enough.  My point is that, despite Matt's complaining, golf is, was, and always has been a game of skill!  The better player always has the advantage.  So Matt's got no unfairness to whine about.

What you guys fail to realize is that Luck and Skill do not have a zero sum relationship.  The value of luck in the game doesnt diminish the value of skill, at least in the long run.  

So I would say that golf is a game of luck and skill.  

As for your NGLA question,  I'd gladly play that game.  And I gladly play it if are positions were reversed, too.  A while back I lost a match after a drive careened out of definite lost ball territory and into the middle of the fairway (leading to a birdie to my par.)  It was beautiful.  I won a match at NGLA after finding my ball right of 18th, in the dark, three times.  It was beautiful, as well.

Yes, this is really the game I want.  And it is the game you want, too, even if you refuse to admit it.  

Think of your Seve shots.  Trying to make an impossible birdie or par after a mediocre or terrible shot. If a course consistently doled out the punishment Seve or you deserved on the former shot, you would be forced to take your medicine, instead of giving you or Seve a chance at a miracle.  

Or think of you back at CPC 16.  When you stand on that tee in gale force winds with a driver in your hands, you arent hoping for what you deserve, you want to get lucky.  
« Last Edit: January 03, 2004, 08:09:38 PM by DMoriarty »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2004, 08:10:44 PM »
Shivas writes:
DaveM, I have a question:  do you really want to play a game where, for example, you're dormie to me going into the Punchbowl at NGLA.  You stripe your approach right at the pin (yeah, the match is so important, you go up and take a look where it is!) to kick-in range.  I hit a patented, tried-and-true, sideways, Schmidty-under-pressure, piece of crap, snipe-hook approach, and it kicks back down to kick-in range, too.

I can't answer for DaveM, but I do want to play a game when such results happen sometimes. Since I don't want to see consistency in golf, I don't want that result every time, but sometimes, sure.

What both you and Matt seem to be missing is there is lots of different kinds of skills. Skill to you guys depends on how well you can hit the ball. To some of the rest of us, it has more to do with how well you can play the game.

I have a buddy I used to play golf with every so often. Physically he was close to scratch. Mentally he was closer to a 36. I would try to stay as close as I could to him early in a match, just waiting for him to get a bad break and blow up. He was consistent enough in his blow ups that the three of us in his foursome would pick which six-hole stretch he would blow up in. Nobody ever picked him getting to the 19th hole. He just could not handle bad luck. If a putt he felt he hit perfect didn't go in, he'd go off. If his ball bounced a way he didn't think it should he would lose it. If the sand consistency or the green speed wasn't exactly as he expected, you had him.

He was an extreme case, but if you took his game and played it on Nintendo he was a really good golfer. But the game isn't played on Nintendo, it's played in the out-of-doors, with all the inconsistencies involved. You'd see his swing and watch him play and think he was a very skilled golfer. He wasn't. He had mastered only a small portion of the game and he wasn't going to be a good golfer until he mastered the rest of the game -- or bad breaks were eliminated from the game. The more golf inconsistencies removed, the better golfer he would become without bothering to improve the huge hole in his game.

Dan King
Quote
For dollar nassaus in practice rounds, Harry Cooper would beat me nine out of ten times, but when the tournament started I beat him three out of four. Harry threw away more tournaments than anybody because he was too excitable. And he believed everybody was lucky and he wasn't.
 --Paul Runyan

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2004, 09:01:39 AM »
So Mr. Shivas, it it your contention that the better one is, the luckier one is? If so, then I concur.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2004, 01:39:21 PM »
Shivas,

As I remember it, when we played Lost Dunes, there wasn't any cold beer OR scenic patrons.

Oh wait, I forgot about the burger joint.....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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