Elevations at NGLA

[George_Bahto]

I’m starting a new thread on this ongoing battle about the NGLA property because we cannot continue trying to fine the end of the other ones ....          

TomP & Pat:

You know I had the original blueprint for NGLA in my possession - the picture of it is one page 63 of my book.

This blueprint has no fairways drawn in, was the original routing beginning on present #10, and had the original name of the course as  “The National Golf Course of America”.

But best of all it has yellow crayon marks, apparently sketched in by Macdonald, indicating where he was thinking of placing his hazards. These marks were not exactly detailed but were done as an artist would, just sort of side strokes of a crayon sketched in - it is sort of a “working drawing.”

There are also India ink marks on the blueprint, blackening in some areas of original yellow marks, as if he was negating earlier ideas.

No fairways drawn, but there were elevation marks along the line of play of each hole - if I had to guess, I would say they were about every 25-feet.

I recorded them all.

The numbers ranged from a low point of +3 ....  (presumably feet - the “key” (scale) is missing from the plan)  

 .....   to high point of +57 ........    (let me qualify the “high point” number by saying I am not taking into
account the Alps Hill area on present hole #3).

So guys where would you say these high and low marks were?


 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Uncle George, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it can be one of two things--the low point of the hole or the low point of site.

Now Uncle George, the question to end all questions........

Do you know the Natonal or are you a student of the National? (p.s. I know the answer!)

[George_Bahto]

Tommy - the low point of the site along the line of play - obviously excluding a body of water on a hole ans as I said excluding the Alps area - that may or may not have been added to by CBM.

let's see ........ "student of ngla?" .......  well, I've been there a few times   -    hah

[brad_miller]

High points, 4th tee, 17th tee up by what would have been site at that time of what is today a wind mill. As they say, just giove me a site with a good 50 feet of varing elavation change.

[GeoffreyC]

George

Low point would be at the 14th green (Cape)

High point at the 17th tee.

[George_Bahto]

Brad: the 17th Tee is at 42.08 - the 4th tee - sorry there was no elevation there but the Redan green is at +31

I was wrong about the Alps - it is not the high pint on the course .... it is "just" 56.20 (units) just short of the "57", the high spot

Dr. Childs: same on 17 Tee, 42.08 but again no mark for the Cape green but close to low, because nearby 6-green surrounds are at +4 while 4-green was marked as +5......   I think 6-green is lower than 14 green, though but cannot prove it with my map.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Uncle George,
You also forgot to tell them of the difference of height on #4!

This might end the whole Mucci/Paul debate!

[GeoffreyC]

George

I guessed the 14th green because its right smack on the water.  I guess you could say the same about 14 tee or 13 green.

Is any feature at NGLA really at sea level?

I'm trying to picture what could be higher then 17 tee and I can only guess that perhaps the area near the clubhhouse so #1 green or 18th?

[Tom_Doak]

Everyone has neglected the logical fact that the golf course tends to work uphill as it moves inland, so that the land will drain.

The highest point would be either the tenth tee or the crest of the fairway at the eleventh.  I'll guess the latter.

George:  I have some more interesting facts which I will be at liberty to share soon, hopefully.

[Len Itnes]

George Bahto,

The area behind and to the left of the 9th tee, left of the 8th green could be the highest point.

Low point could be short and to the right of the 14th green

[George_Bahto]

It's really funny that without a topo and when thinking about a long thin course like this one, how it all gets out of perspective.

I would have guessed the 1-tee and present 18-green as well as 17-tee would all have been pretty close .......   and they are:

1-tee  - +44.00
18-grn - +45.00
17-tee - +42.80        .... all well short of what the "high-spot"   ........ and surprise: this high-spot is listed at fully 12.00 higher than 18-green

Len: the area you were talking about, 8-grn / 9-tee: 8-grn 21.60 - 9-tee is listed at 19.60

Tom: 10-tee - 38.20; 11, crest of the fairway is 30.10.

I  was going to throw out a hint but I'm sort of waiting for the Pat & Tom show to chime in -  

isn't interesting that the property goes as high as 57.00 over Bull Head's Bay ??

I'll wait a little longer

[TEPaul]

George;

I've looked carefully at the original blueprint on your page 63 but of course it's so small in the book it's impossible to read any detail. It'd be nice to know if there's a date of any kind of that blueprint. Are you supposing that blueprint and the "unit numbers" along the fairway lines to be predated any and all construction work? Obviously there're no contour lines on the blueprint either which would be the "key" to determining exactly what was made and what was original topography preconstruction.

But one thing is for sure--the orginal site of NGLA definitely was not some inhospitable land of bogs and swamps that had to be filled in as the Lido had to be to a considerable extent!

There's another fact that'd be nice to know as well. Can we be fairly sure that the original 450 acres Macdonald looked at with Whigam and chose 205 acres of and which was to become NGLA included that land now known at "Bayberry" on which the new golf course is scheduled to be built? Knowing that land and the coastline around there I can't imagine the remaining acreage of the 450 acres Macdonald refers to could be anything other than the Bayberry land next door.

I did drive in there a few month ago but particularly while driving along the road to the west of it along the water and all the way around to a point very close to the coastline below #18 NGLA there appeared to be a good amount of low land and land that probably is or was swamp and bogs on that coastal side of the Bayberry land.

[TEPaul]

George:

Were you waiting for me to guess what the high point of the property is? I sure would like to take another look out there but I might say the top of the ridge-line running down from the right of #2 fairwary in the woods there. I don't even know how far in there the NGLA property line is but I wouldn't be surprised if that ridgeline in there was a bit higher than the area the windmill sits on (and the alps hill too).

[George_Bahto]

Tommy Paul - that's pretty good , fella - ....  but explain "the top of the ridge-line running down from the right of #2 fairway in the woods there."

1. about the blueprint: I knew I was going to "lose control" of the print - that's why I copied all the numbers. Too bad there were some missing because the more I think about it, I think the area short left of 13-green is pretty low

2. I think Bayberry had to be part of the original arcreage.

3. Tom Paul - That print had to be preconstruction. The thing is very brittle and a portion is missing - probably where the key and other info was - too bad!

I found those "abandonded" tees on 8 - 12 by comparing the yardage on the original scorecard to the print.

The old proshop came from Bayberry - it was given to the club by Charlie Sabin. You had to love that old wreck of a proshop. I think the second pro shot himself there - he was ther a year, if I remember correctly. He probably hadn't seen anyone for 3 months and went crazy.

Another "little-know": when standing on 17-tee, the land a bit to the right is known Cow Neck. Southampton CC was supposed to be built there, the land donated by Sabin. There was a right of way problem and the course finally got built whre it is now.  Seth actually drew up a set of plans for "Cow Neck."

[TEPaul]

Len Itines:

All those truck loads of dirt were probably to cover extensive fairway area (greens) for a growing medium. In the beginning Macdonald basically ran into a total agronomic failure at NGLA because he was basically trying to grow grass on sand.

Wayne Morrison and I found mention of this about NGLA in some correspondence between Hugh Wilson (Merion) and Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture beginning in 1911. Macdonald had been in contact with Piper and Oakley to try to solve his agronomic problems at NGLA. Obviously the course (fairways and greens) needed tons to dirt mixed with the sand to create a growing medium that could hold moisture. Back in those day golf agronomy was unbelievalbly little known and rudimentary.

This would probably help explain Macdonald's famous line to George Crump that PVGC could be a great course if Crump could figure out how to grow grass on it (PVGC was also a sand based site). Of course Crump too has a well known line about this type of thing. Somebody asked him what he'd like for Christmas and he said; "as many truck loads of dirt as I can get!"

[George_Bahto]

CBM wrote a great article

    ThE GROWING of FINE TURF
On the Sandy Soils of Long Island

  by CHARLES BLAIR MACDONALD

 Golf Illustrated - January 1917)

and shared his knowldge with everyone

"PUTTING GREENS


The best putting greens we have on Shinnecock Hills (he's talking about National here indicating it is part of the Sh. Hills)  were built as follows: In order to conserve moisture, blocks of salt meadow sod, eight to twelve inches in depth, were first placed in the sand, disc-harrowed and cross-harrowed, until the surface was evened up; a heavy coating of crushed lime-stone was then placed on this frayed meadow sod; then a quantity of the best sandy loam obtained in the hollows between the hills was mixed with an equal quantity of our compost sufficient to make a six to eight-inch bed for seeding.  Some greens were seeded entirely with Rhode Island Bent,  others with Creeping Rent. sometimes sold in England as "South German Agrostis,'' while others with New Zealand Fescue, but the majority of the greens were seeded with various mixtures of these seeds. Seed was used at the rate of 3 pints to 9 square yards."

pretty smart for a retired stock trader

there's a lot more in the article - most of it technical about seed etc

[TEPaul]

George:

The reason I said to the right of #2 fairway is a couple of years ago Kye Goalby and I were out there playing and right away we got into trying to pick up on natural grade all over the course to see if we could figure out where architectural "tie-ins" started (and of course we basically stopped playing and spent the remainder of about half a day just analyzing where natural grade tied into construction).

But I remember as we came up to the crest of #2 fairway if you look right the ridge across the top of that fairway runs up into the woodline to the right. I never went up there but I felt if you did go up in there it'd seem higher than anything else around. So I felt maybe up to the right of the top of #2 fairway is probably the highest elevation but I don't really know where the NGLA property line is and where Bayberry's starts up in there and since it's all trees in there determining the elevation up there wasn't so obvious. I guess I could've walked up in there but we weren't thinking about the highest elevation on NGLA at the time.

[George_Bahto]

This is prety good too - talking about one acre:

"We did not plow, but cut the brush off throughout the summer while we were making our compost for the seed bed.
Cutting the brush left the roots in the ground to bind  it, and these rotted into excellent humus in a few years.  It requires nearly 140 tons of compost to top dress one acre one inch in thickness for the fair green seed bed. One inch is scant, two is better. Constant watching is necessary  to avoid killing by drought, and the seeded fair green should be covered by light horse manure in winter to prevent winter-killing while the grass is young and tender. The 140 tons of compost is made up as follows:

1. Finely ground limestone    10 tons
2. Clay sandy loam            20 tons
3. Sandy peat muck            75 tons
4. Manure                     35 tons

[TEPaul]

"I  was going to throw out a hint but I'm sort of waiting for the Pat & Tom show to chime in - "

George:

Don't hold your breath waiting for Pat to chime in! After  implying that NGLA was a mass of HOSTILE SWAMPS AND BOGS ill suited for anything in everyone's opinion (presumably including Macdonald) that he thinks probably required a dredge and fill operation akin to Lido with comparable "HEAVILY MANUFACTURED" architecture everywhere---Pat has gone into hiding! But he'll be back one of these days maintaining I'm the Ray Charles of golf architecture analysts or some such nonsense!

[George_Bahto]

OK, I'm getting older by the day anyhow

Tom you were very close

according to the blueprint, which I can only assume was correct at the time it was made, the highest elevation was at the top of the sprawly Sahara bunker.  

57.00 - I had it marked "at the crest of the Sahara waste bunker"

* it had a 39.00 where I marked: "begin Sahara bunker"

* then there was a 51.20, which presumably was halfway thru the bunker

* then the 57.00 at the top

* the next elevation beyond those was 50.80 dropping down two more marks of 48.00 and 40.00 to the 2nd green at 38.00

anyhow, you would not have thought it

gb

[TEPaul]

George;

Interesting. Next time we're out there together you stand on top of the Sahara bunker and I'll walk way out to the right of the fairway into that treeline on the ridgeline that runs from well into the trees down across the Sahara bunker and to the windmill and I bet you I'll be looking down at you!

[TEPaul]

Actually George, it looks to me on that blueprint like the Sahara bunker covers the entire #2 fairway and runs almost to the property line on the right of that hole. In the blueprint that Sahara bunker looks to be many times bigger and more expansive than it is now or possibly was originally built.

[Neil Regan]

To assist in this discussion, here is the American Golfer article with pictures from 1910 (including the Sahara bunker, then hole #11) :

American Golfer August 1910


Also, an article about the Sahara (now #2) by Macdonald and Whigham, with photos and

illustrated with a full-page plaster of Paris model
worked out from an especially prepared topographical map.[/b]

Surveyed and modelled by Oscar Smith, Jr., of F. S. Tainter & Co., 55 Wall Street, New York.

Golf Illustrated 1914 May  

George, Tom, where is this map ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I would suspect deep with-in the bowels of the National Golf Links Clubhouse.

I say we take the clubhouse by storm, make the bartender fix us several rounds of Southsides and start digging around in "that" upstairs room in the west end of the clubhouse, all while munching on veal tenderloins, cold lobster tails and rice cakes soaked in cream.


Then we'll go "look" at the golf course!

[George_Bahto]

they did a wonderful job of cleaning out the basement back in the 1950s