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Matt Schoolfield

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Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« on: October 22, 2024, 06:01:28 PM »
Today I was reminded of a documentary I saw in grad school: The Five Obstructions, by Lars von Trier and Jørgen Leth. I wouldn't exactly recommend the film, but the idea is that one filmmaker challenges the other to remake a famous short film, over and over, with increasingly difficult obstructions to film making (12 frame cuts, making the film in a tough location, split screens, animation, etc.). In some cases the remake is made successfully, in others it is unsuccessful.

I thought that we've actually seen this is golf architecture:

  • No bunkers is quite common: notably Sheep Ranch, but various others.
  • Remaking an NLE course: The Lido has been remade twice.
  • Intentionally building on unsuitable land: Dye's Sawgrass Stadium Course seems the iconic example of this.
I know it's not a perfect parallel, but are there any other "obstructions" (intentionally sub-optimal design conditions) that have been taken on by architects?

What are some examples of architects successfully/unsuccessfully designing under such constraints?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2024, 06:03:24 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2024, 07:15:36 PM »
Do you consider it intentional when building in places where grass doesn’t grow naturally? Because then any place like Dubai or Las Vegas or Phoenix would seem to qualify. I’d bet they have an OK hit rate in such places.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2024, 08:02:30 PM »
Do you consider it intentional when building in places where grass doesn’t grow naturally? Because then any place like Dubai or Las Vegas or Phoenix would seem to qualify. I’d bet they have an OK hit rate in such places.


I suppose it is a technical limitation, so it should count. Similar to building on lava flows I suppose. I was thinking more along the lines of a design choice. Like choosing to have no bunkers, or no earthmoving whatsoever, or a course that never called for driver… something like that.
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Joe Zucker

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2024, 10:06:14 PM »
Matt, this is very similar to a topic I have been thinking about and actually have a draft post of sitting in my google drive. Is is essentially, what is the value of constraints? To answer your question specifically, many holes in Scotland that play over and around old walls could fall into this category.  The Road hole is a great hole that contends with a strict boundary fence. 

Below is the thought I have been working through that I think ties into your question in the original post.

Many of the greatest courses had constraints put on them that resulted in creative and great solutions.  It is often lamented that if a modern architect built something today like the Road Hole where you hit over a building, it would be their last job. In a recent thread titled “What Killed the Golden Age?”, I (and others) mentioned the rise in technology.  Technology essentially eliminated a lot of constraints the Golden Age architects contended with. 

In general, this seems like a good thing because it opens up new opportunities that did not previously exist.  And every “constrained” option would still be there if the architect wanted.  However, it seems like removing constraints leads to less interesting courses, rather than more interesting courses (definitely less varied courses). When constraints are gone, it’s difficult or impossible to see creative and out of the box solutions that may actually be better in the long run.   

What if we gave the best modern architects more constraints and watched what they came up with?  I don’t suggest we remove all technology from modern design or go back to creating courses with shovels and donkeys.  We already operate with relatively firm rules (par 70-72, four or five par 3s, etc.). 

It’s cool to see Tom Doak break the mold with Sedge Valley and The Loop, which are radically different.  But what if we went further?  This could mean a million different things and would vary by site.  It would also be arbitrary in the modern age where odd sites would likely be abandoned, but it’s an interesting thought exercise for me.

Could a course with weirder constraints by Coore & Crenshaw be even better than one without? I’m not confident the answer is yes, but it would be interesting to see what new ideas would come to them if they had to contend with the shed on the Road Hole or something equally out of left field.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2024, 10:07:54 PM by Joe Zucker »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2024, 02:44:34 AM »
Joe, yes I agree, this is very much the same question asked at a more granular level. I didn't even think of "reversible" as being an intentional obstruction to design that could be undertaken, but there it is.
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Sean_A

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2024, 03:52:26 AM »
Housing estate courses.

Reverse courses.

Ciao
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Ira Fishman

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2024, 08:19:05 AM »
If you want an example of a course done brilliantly in “split screen”, see the thread re-running on Friar’s Head. Half gorgeous dunes; half potato field.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2024, 08:50:19 AM »
Are any of these, with the exception of reversible courses, "intentional?"  Or are they simply site constraints?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

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Stewart Abramson

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2024, 09:18:13 AM »
Are any of these, with the exception of reversible courses, "intentional?"  Or are they simply site constraints?


Housing estate courses, as mentioned by Sean above, would seem to be intentional impediment to a good design, in at least some instances.


We have a lot of them here in Florida. They fall into two categories. One, where the golf course is on one parcel of land with housing on the perimeter. The other, where there are disjointed holes (sometimes all 18), with houses on both sides of the fairways and long cart paths to be followed from hole to hole to combine separate parcels into a golf course. The latter category is an intentional obstruction/impediment to good design.

Blake Conant

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2024, 04:52:02 PM »
During this exercise, what were the components of the film the filmmakers were forced to keep?


The idea of remaking something over and over reminds me more of Muirfield or Crooked Stick. The premise of the golf course stays the same, but it's tweaked over and over to ask new questions of the golfer. It doesn't quite go as far as your film analogy though.




Tom_Doak

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2024, 11:27:56 AM »
Are any of these, with the exception of reversible courses, "intentional?"  Or are they simply site constraints?


I’ve made intentional constraints on a few of my designs:


High Pointe 1.0:  no mounds
The Loop: reversible, hole locations must work in both directions
Memorial Park: maximum 20 bunkers
Sedge Valley:  maximum one par 5


These were all somewhat practical choices (bunkers are tougher to build and maintain on heavy soils like Memorial Park), but still purposely driving the direction of the design.


Making courses walkable is a constraint, which you can ratchet up as far as you want.  Even making wide fairways can be seen as a design constraint- you can’t use narrowness as a challenge.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2024, 11:55:43 AM »
There is an old saying in design that constraints are good.  They force you to think differently than if an artist with a blank slate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Schley

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2024, 01:16:25 PM »
Adding internal OB or Cops like at Royal Liverpool to make it more difficult.
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Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2024, 01:27:18 PM »
During this exercise, what were the components of the film the filmmakers were forced to keep?

The idea of remaking something over and over reminds me more of Muirfield or Crooked Stick. The premise of the golf course stays the same, but it's tweaked over and over to ask new questions of the golfer. It doesn't quite go as far as your film analogy though.
The film they were recreating was the film The Perfect Human, by Leth, which is apparently von Trier's favorite film. If you want to watch it, it's free to watch on youtube and less than 15 minutes, but I warn you, it's avant-garde to the point of being barely watchable. The film is so blatantly mundane and laid out that getting the general gist in any recreation seems fairly trivial.

I think I take your point thought. I guess perhaps the parallel would be better thought of as being applied to templates.

I definitely think Joe's formulation of the issue is better, and more well thought out than mine was.
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Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2024, 05:04:53 PM »

Why no mounds at High Pointe 1.0?



Are any of these, with the exception of reversible courses, "intentional?"  Or are they simply site constraints?


I’ve made intentional constraints on a few of my designs:


High Pointe 1.0:  no mounds
The Loop: reversible, hole locations must work in both directions
Memorial Park: maximum 20 bunkers
Sedge Valley:  maximum one par 5


These were all somewhat practical choices (bunkers are tougher to build and maintain on heavy soils like Memorial Park), but still purposely driving the direction of the design.


Making courses walkable is a constraint, which you can ratchet up as far as you want.  Even making wide fairways can be seen as a design constraint- you can’t use narrowness as a challenge.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2024, 05:12:25 PM »
Wouldn't the biggest one be a general desire for "minimalism" or for limited earthmoving? That's certainly a choice that makes building some courses more difficult than they otherwise might be.


Another one that comes to mind, though maybe not used as much anymore, is template holes. Declaring from the start that you must include certain types of holes is intentionally limiting.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2024, 09:43:39 AM »

Why no mounds at High Pointe 1.0?



In the 80s it seemed like every big name designer was building mounds across the landscape and claiming they were creating “Scottish” courses - including the Jack Nicklaus course just up the road, The Bear at Grand Traverse Resort.


I was determined to build the anti-Bear.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2024, 12:32:00 AM »

Ah, so mounding that frames the hole corridors. Yeah, we have a fairly early Nicklaus right by me (Country Club of the Rockies) that has that look, but the main use of mounds is to separate the course from Highway 6.


I love random mounds and berms that are at least partially in play vs. just framing the hole.


Why no mounds at High Pointe 1.0?



In the 80s it seemed like every big name designer was building mounds across the landscape and claiming they were creating “Scottish” courses - including the Jack Nicklaus course just up the road, The Bear at Grand Traverse Resort.


I was determined to build the anti-Bear.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

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Re: Intentional design obstructions in golf architecture
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2024, 08:28:40 AM »

Ah, so mounding that frames the hole corridors. Yeah, we have a fairly early Nicklaus right by me (Country Club of the Rockies) that has that look, but the main use of mounds is to separate the course from Highway 6.

I love random mounds and berms that are at least partially in play vs. just framing the hole.



Actually I was so tired of seeing mounds that I didn't want any of them anywhere.  I thought to myself that many Golden Age courses didn't really have constructed mounds in play, and that there weren't many natural shapes like that on site, so I shouldn't build any.  In the end, I did build a mound-ish contour on the right side of the original sixth green [NLE] but I think that was the only one.

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