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Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2024, 03:00:49 PM »
Phil,

I hear you and completely agree with you about the nature of claims. My only concern is these private clubs may have private evidence that they, for one reason or another, choose not to share. I honestly have no idea why anyone would want to keep a private history, but you know better than I do that some choose to operate that way. I'm just doing things as best as I think I can as a non-expert in the area.

Bret,

If you're frustrated by this thread, I'm sorry. This is not my intention, and these threads do spiral a bit. I do understand that discussions of any point of controversy can be unnecessary and unpleasant, especially when that is instigated by someone else's apparent self-promotion. I can see that line in this thread, and I regret if that is the way this has gone. I'll try to discuss some of my reasoning in good-faith here, and if that is unwelcome or seen as patronizing, I'm sorry about that too.

The reason why I'm fairly obsessed with citations and verifiability basically goes back to my time studying philosophy of science. While it is entirely practical that we could have a single Raynor list that most people agree is correct, but when it comes the nature of Knowledge and Truth (with capital letters), the idea that there will ever be a single, definitive Raynor list, should ultimately run into the philosophical problem of induction.

Two allusion I think illustrate this well is, on the straightforward side, the "debate" as to the spherical nature of the earth, and on the more complicated side is the "debate" as to the authorship of the works of Shakespeare:

To the first point, that flat-earthers exist is a testament that there will somehow be contrarians in the face of overwhelming, and readily available evidence. That contrarians exist, however, is fairly inconsequential as the evidence speaks for itself, and that these contrarians exist is more of a curiosity or novelty, rather than a problem, so long as they are not able to enforce their orthodoxy over others. In this situation, any serious discussion of the distinction between truth and Truth in regards to the earth being spherical, despite any technicality, becomes strained to the point of ridiculousness. And I understand that.

The debate of the authorship of the works of Shakespeare is a bit more interesting. Here we have a significant amount of record such that it's arguable that it should be straightforward, however, it is still notable that there are other narratives that even some academics seem to find the most plausible. However, the clear evidence speaks for itself for all practical purposes, and many-if-not-most of these dubious theories rely heavily on a lack of falsifiabliity.

Now, as you point out correctly, given the lack of evidence to back up the claims about Raynor at MV, we have a situation clearly illustrated by Russell's Teapot, and given the contravening evidence, for all practical purposes the claims should generally be dismissed, at least until new evidence is presented. Again, here we are talking about knowledge, and not Knowledge, because unseen evidence could exist. Again though, the evidence speaks for itself, and the lack of evidence speaks volumes.

As long as MV relies on generally unfalsifiable claims, by presenting no positive evidence, they should not be taken seriously. However it is easy to muddy the waters, such with the case of the Earl of Oxford, any suppression of these theories generally adds a narrative component to their lack of falsifiabliity. Ultimately, it seems that trying to turn perfectly reasonable knowledge into Knowledge is tilting at windmills, as there will be contrarians out there with the inclination (and monetary incentives) to present their version of Russell's Teapot to the community.

Here, I must point out, as respectfully as possible, that my understanding of these philosophical theories suggests that a definitive list, especially one presented without citation, is mostly only falsifiable to the author. That's all fair and good, and experts are respected because they have developed respected reputations. An open list of citation, however, presents an understanding that is falsifiable for everyone. This presents a form of powerful knowledge, even if does not hold the thrust of Knowledge.

Here, ultimately, I see no researcher should ever need to explain themselves for their view of the evidence they've presented. The evidence should speak for itself. The influence of the researchers exists as a guide to walk through the evidence to illustrate the argument/narrative that they've seen in it, which should be readily apparent to anyone looking at the evidence in good faith, even if it is not obvious. Here, I'm highly influenced by Spinoza. Thus, I think it's appropriate to create and maintain entries for Oxfordian theories, despite how dubious they are, because, again, it is the evidence that should stand in the academic tradition, not any school of thought. 

---

I apologize for any pedantry here, and for the wall-of-text nature of the way I write. In the next section I explain what I've done with my site and why I've done it. Obviously, feel free to skip this part if folks aren't interested (as I fully understand it could be seen as self-promotion), but I think it's relevant to this discussion. Again, I will apologize for my superfluousness, but it's really the only way I know how to engage in these discussions in good faith.

---

Now, there are plenty of ways to present open lists of citations. I have propose a few ways to do this in some private discussions with a few golf historians, and they have been generally rejected. The first is that clubs or institutions themselves organize an open format to share citations. That is to say, each club website simply has a subdomain, say, someclubwebsite.org/historical_citations.json, or similar, so that anyone looking for information to that club via navigating to that subdomain. While the club may not present the text of the citations, it may be privately owned or copyrighted, the citation itself is still valuable to any researcher. This is a perfectly straightforward decentralized way of doing things. I would prefer this. I, however, have no way of implementing such a thing aside from presenting it in a more academically minded forum, where researchers like yourself and authors like Phil hang out.

The other option is the publication of open academic journals on the subject, with a peer review system. If this system exists, I'm generally not aware of it. And with all respect and admiration of Adam's publication, it is not the type publication I'm talking about. I wish that type of publication existed, but I am in no position to create it.

What I do have in my power is to try and create a centralized resource of citation, and that is what I'm trying to do because I think it's worth doing. "You would need guys like Sven Nilsen, Mike Cirba, Joe Bausch, Phil Young, Jim Kennedy, Anthony Pioppi, Nigel Islam, Brad Klein to comb through this list to make it as accurate as possible, and even then there would be disputes and discrepancies." I completely agree with this assessment, and I also agree that it's implausible, and the project will likely fail, but the fact remains that as someone who is academically minded, this is the only path forward I see that I can execute, and I think it's something worth trying. The primary reason why I have pursued this is simply that it didn't exist, and the nature of open, centralized resources tend to create a virtuous circle dynamic at surprising rates. This means that if one historian engages with it, it becomes extremely more likely that another would. The more that do, the more everyone benefits. All I can do is put in a lot of work, and try to present myself as open and honestly as I can as a good faith actor in the project.

If anyone made it this far, thanks for hearing me out.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 04:09:01 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2024, 04:31:29 AM »
Hi Bret, this is the only one that I have found in my researches. On January 1, 1922, the Kansas City Star newspaper included a long column with the heading, “THE HIGH SPOTS IN GOLF. KANSAS CITY PLAYERS STARRED AND CLUBS PROSPERED IN 1921.” The last paragraph on the left hand side of the page stated the following:
      “Through the efforts of the Kansas City Golf Association an exhibition match was arranged between the two British stars, Abe Mitchell and George Duncan, who were then touring the country, and ‘Chick’ Evans, an amateur champion, and Bob McDonald. The proceeds were turned over to Swope Park. ‘Chick’ Evans gladly gave his services when he learned of the cause and refused transportation. The idol of the caddies brought Seth Raynor, an architect, who suggested several improvements which could be made over the Swope Park course, which are being carried out. To show in part its appreciation the K.C.G.A. presented Evans with diamond studded cuff links.”

Will Thrasher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2024, 11:18:45 AM »
Stewart,


I am sorry for the confusion.  I meant to say: I don’t know why you would include a William D. Clark designed golf course in a Map of Seth Raynor courses. 


If Minnesota Valley wants to believe they are a Seth Raynor course that is their right and I have no problem with that, but if you want to make an honest map of Seth Raynor courses, I don’t think you should include it.


If Minnesota Valley is a Seth Raynor course, all the club needs to do is provide one piece of hard evidence that Raynor ever visited the course.  It’s a very simple solution to the most controversial entry on the list.  However, I have yet to see any information suggesting Seth Raynor was there and the 1937 aerial doesn’t exactly scream Seth Raynor design to me.  I can understand peoples apprehension about this information.  If you don’t want to put your faith in us, I  understand, but don’t put your faith in anyone else either. Do the research yourself and see what you find.  We even encourage members to take a trip to their local library and search the information for themselves.


I have no skin in the game.  I am a huge Seth Raynor fan who has been researching his work for several years along with Nigel and Anthony.  Our first priority is the truth.  We want there to be more Seth Raynor courses, but if they aren’t a Raynor design we also feel it’s our obligation to call that out.  Whether that gets received well or not is up to the club.  The bottom line with Minnesota Valley is there are two stories.  I just want readers to be open to that idea so they can make their own informed decisions. 


Matt,


I appreciate all the work you’re doing for your free site, but you’re asking for a lot!  The time that has gone into research to make these lists as complete as possible is absurd.  Much like the Donald Ross list at the Tufts Archives we do not list our sources, because it takes up a lot of space.  Anthony encouraged anyone with questions to contact him by email.  Anyone truly interested in this information has the means to access it.  This list was really directed to Will so he could make an accurate Raynor map on Google Maps which sounds really interesting to me.


Bret


Bret, appreciate this and will make edits. Just sent you PM on here with my email as well so I can share edit privileges with you on this list should you uncover more in your research. I'm not sure if my PM went through, but feel free to message me on here as well and we can email back and forth
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 11:06:37 AM by Will Thrasher »
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2024, 10:04:40 AM »
Jim:


Thank you for the Hotchkiss update, I will try to get up there in the next couple of weeks.


Phil: 


Thank you for providing that report of Raynor at Swope Park. That is the only article we have ever found as well.  The short paragraph is packed full of information, but leaves a lot of unanswered questions.


Matt:


I am not frustrated by the thread, I think it’s a wonderful topic.  I also realize these threads can spiral, but it’s usually because of the people posting in the thread.  We are responsible for the spiraling of this thread, the thread didn’t spiral on its own.


Sometimes you need to put down your history books, science books and philosophy books and use common sense.  That is the approach I take.  I’ve never had to use philosophy to figure out when courses were built or who built them.  I just let the reports from the day tell me what happened.  If there are two stories about a course and one story has evidence to back it up while the other doesn’t, it’s a very simple decision for me.  I simply forget about the original story until evidence suggests I should do otherwise.  The way you have framed your MV listing to the public is biased and you should be able to recognize that.  It’s okay to be biased, but when you are writing an objective history, you need to temper those biases to be most effective.  You certainly aren’t doing MV any favors by listing it publicly, and you aren’t doing Seth Raynor fans any favors by sending them to what is likely not a Seth Raynor golf course.  Your writing however does make it clear that it benefits you in a great way because it’s a perfect case study for your philosophical approach. That is the part I am not interested in.


You also need to be consistent.  You read half of one thread on Cypress Point and determine that Raynor’s routing is confirmed and Joshua Petit has seen it.  If that’s the case, I would love to see the confirmed Raynor routing as well.  Show me the verifiability.  On the other hand, I give you a well researched list and hard evidence about a story and you want to write paragraph upon paragraph to challenge its validity.  Where is the consistency?


I agree an open list of sources and citations would be terrific, but that’s not something we are interested in doing right now.  We don’t like to just give away our information so someone can work on their pet project. You describe it as  sharing information, but we aren’t really sharing information, if all you have to offer is your point-of-view on this information. 


Phil Young found the article on Raynor at Swope Park and I am guessing it didn’t take him long to verify that the story was legit.  The reason he found it so quickly, is because of his knowledge base.  He knows where to look and how to manipulate databases.  I would recommend this is a skill you acquire to put this list together otherwise it will just be another list.  I would also recommend subscribing to one of the modern sources you often use, but don’t credit.  If you aren’t going to give the modern source credit, then you should at least pay them for their services of providing you the information you desire.  Searching pre-clipped articles for free will only get you so far.  I hope this information helps you in your endeavor.




Bret

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2024, 10:58:57 AM »
In my opinion, the gold standard for amateur historians gathering, researching, and sharing information on an architect is the Perry Maxwell Archive created by Ed Oden.  If we had such a resource for other major architects, where information was sourced and shared, we'd all be much better off.  I recognize it takes years to find, catalogue, and ultimately share such information, but the intent and spirit of the Maxwell project is the ideal.

HOME | Mysite

There is no agenda here to promote or protect Maxwell's legacy.  Rather, the only goal is historical accuracy.  Which is why the PERRY MAXWELL ARCHIVE is factually based, with source materials included and without any interpretation other than clearly identified editorial comments intended to provide context to specific factual entries.  Historical knowledge is never static and inevitably evolves as new information is discovered.  Blind adherence to accepted truths is a recipe for misguidance and the PERRY MAXWELL ARCHIVE will be a failure if it ever ceases to be a work in progress.  Accordingly, new or contrary information is not only welcomed, but actively encouraged.  The hope is that others will contribute additional information that adds to the collective understanding of Perry Maxwell and the golf courses he touched.
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Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2024, 02:16:50 PM »
Sometimes you need to put down your history books, science books and philosophy books and use common sense.
I see. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I have encountered a lot of common sense is neither common nor sense, which is why I don't tend to trust my own.

The way you have framed your MV listing to the public is biased and you should be able to recognize that.
It's not my MV listing. It's the MV listing on my site. The issue here is that literally anyone can come along and change it (and I hope they do, that's the entire point), so if a MV member comes along to my site, and sees that it is not listed as a Seth Raynor course, they can just add it as a Seth Raynor course. I don't want this to happen, but without getting too philosophical, it's a problem that Wikipedia has had to deal with so creating an entry that is generally inarguable, by describing the situation and laying out the known facts it will likely not result in an edit war. It seems like MV as a Seth Raynor course is ripe for that level of disagreement.

You certainly aren’t doing MV any favors by listing it publicly, and you aren’t doing Seth Raynor fans any favors by sending them to what is likely not a Seth Raynor golf course.
I had already planned to write a format that highlights courses in different, clearer ways, where a course that is fully designed by someone is bright red, but where they just worked in the construction of the course is, say, a dull grey. In this case, disputed courses could appear faded, so it is clear that they are in dispute. I have no concern about MV, I just want to share information. If people ended up removing MV from the Seth Raynor list, I wouldn't stop them.

Your writing however does make it clear that it benefits you in a great way because it’s a perfect case study for your philosophical approach. That is the part I am not interested in.
Again, I'd hope you'd reconsider your dismissal of an analytical approach to reason. I'm not here to tell you how to think, but I've done my best to lay out my reasoning. If it's wrong, I'm more than happy to be wrong, because if someone can demonstrate it, I've learned something.

You also need to be consistent.  You read half of one thread on Cypress Point and determine that Raynor’s routing is confirmed and Joshua Petit has seen it.  If that’s the case, I would love to see the confirmed Raynor routing as well.  Show me the verifiability.  On the other hand, I give you a well researched list and hard evidence about a story and you want to write paragraph upon paragraph to challenge its validity.  Where is the consistency?
Firstly, once I get the citation system up and running (this is my biggest criticism of myself here, and it's high on my to do list), then I'll at least need a citation from Josh, and will reach out to him, and may attempt to verify it myself or at least reach out to CP to see if they will verify it.

Why one and not the other? I can't answer this without actually getting annoyingly philosophical, so bear with me. Negative assertions are different in kind than positive assertions. When listing a positive assertion, I can point to Josh and his citation, and that's all one really needs to do (unfortunately for us, without a time machine, we are limited to testimony). Generally we would say: 'this is the case, and here's the record of it.'

When making negative claims, though, there are so many ways in which we can be wrong that it's just hard to reasonably argue for it definitively. We can say, easily, that newspapers state that W.D. Clark designed and built MV (and we should shout it from the rooftops), but that does not mean that Raynor wasn't (possibly, even if improbably) a co-designer, or that it wasn't designed from his plans, or that Raynor and Clark weren't in correspondence. It is very difficult to state these negatives, because it's very difficult to know whether or not they are true, even if they are wildly improbable. The best we can usually say is 'probably not,' and probably not is what I tried to list in my entry.

This just isn't typically an issue we deal with simply because it rarely comes up. 'Troy was not a real city' would have have been an effectively universal belief until 1868, when it was unearthed. The existence of giant squids was considered dubious until 2002. The metaphor of the black swan is relevant here. On these rare occasions, the problem of negative assertions shows itself. It's okay that we don't have certainty on most things, but philosophical solipsism is generally rejected out-of-hand by most, and for perfectly sensible practical reasons.

I agree an open list of sources and citations would be terrific, but that’s not something we are interested in doing right now.  We don’t like to just give away our information so someone can work on their pet project. You describe it as  sharing information, but we aren’t really sharing information, if all you have to offer is your point-of-view on this information.

This is unfortunate. The concept of 'our information' is just so antithetical to the academic tradition that I know and have been a part of, that I find your usage of the term affecting. We are all here with the information we have because previous generations gave it openly, recorded it for posterity, and archived it for us not knowing whether we would need it. The principals of open research are there for a reason, because they benefit everyone. I do not care about the ultimate success or failure of my pet projects, but I certainly hope that you would reconsider sharing the basic citations that you think are relevant to golf history, simply for the sake of future generations.

Phil Young found the article on Raynor at Swope Park and I am guessing it didn’t take him long to verify that the story was legit.  The reason he found it so quickly, is because of his knowledge base.  He knows where to look and how to manipulate databases.  I would recommend this is a skill you acquire to put this list together otherwise it will just be another list.

It won't be 'just another list' because it's not my list. If the project is successful, it becomes a list that is open, editable, and verifiable by anyone. That is the entire point is to combine knowledge bases from multiple people. The reason why Wikipedia is such a successful encyclopedia is not because it's 100% accurate (no encyclopedia is), it's that every other encyclopedia has so many errors of omission, because they rely on the limited resources of individual agents. The point is to create a reference, not to one or two architect lists, but to every possible architect's list, which will take a combine effort of a large group of people.

Again, I'm only focused on my site because Wikipedia did not have a golf-specific framework, nor is this project within their scope of relevance. One of the possible results of a successful project may be that it ends up as part of the Wikimedia Foundation.

I would also recommend subscribing to one of the modern sources you often use, but don’t credit.  If you aren’t going to give the modern source credit, then you should at least pay them for their services of providing you the information you desire.  Searching pre-clipped articles for free will only get you so far.

I am genuinely confused by this statement. Are you suggesting I credit the archive? I suppose I should add that as a technical part of the citation (again, I do need to get the formal citation system up and running). I will actively do my best to credit any source, insofar as it is something that can be cited. If you provide me with a publication of yours with a citation, that publication would receive top billing if that citation was used. If you are imploring me to subscribe to newspapers, I already subscribe to multiple. If you're imploring me to use funded sources for archive databases, I absolutely typically use those funded channels I have access to in my community, and failing those, I would happily pay per article I needed, but in this case I did not need to. I feel like I'm missing something here.

---

I do appreciate this back and forth, so please don't take any of this as critical.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 03:15:03 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2024, 06:57:03 AM »
Pioppi once said at a Raynor Society meeting that there were fewer Raynor courses built than folks realize.  Based on the lack of much info, Raynor was thought by some to be credited with designing upwards to 150 courses.  Pioppi said this was poppy (sorry, couldn't resist!).  Tony said Seth designed about 75 courses of which around 55 were actually built and about 35 in existence today.  That still holds Bret?

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2024, 09:52:06 AM »
JC,


That still holds true.  I think between Macdonald and Raynor the number of designs are up to 96.  In other words, they worked on 96 different courses that we know of.  This would include second courses at Yale, Yeamans, Gibson, projects that we know he designed a course and construction started, but the course was never completed (Shotwell, Cragin Park).  And courses like Nassau, Bahamas or Hope Ranch in Santa Barbara, where we know he travelled there to look at sites for a golf course, but we have no further information whether he designed a course or not.


Out of those 96 course consultations, 66 golf courses were built or renovated, and 48 still exist.  10 of the courses that still exist are considered Macdonald designs, so that leaves about 38 Raynor courses existing in some form.  This number includes courses like Everglades, which was redesigned by Brian Silva in the spirit of Raynor. It also includes courses where Raynor may have only made a few changes, or a place like Nassau Country Club, where only the remnants of one Raynor hole remain.  Anthony probably accounted for about 3 courses where it would be hard to find any of Raynor’s original work left to get to the 35 number?


Charles Banks worked solo on at least 20 projects that we know, 15 courses were built or renovated and 2 no longer exist.  That should give you another dozen or so to visit!


I’ve never discussed with Anthony how he got that exact number, but I think it has to be close.


Bret




Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2024, 10:03:32 AM »
In my opinion, the gold standard for amateur historians gathering, researching, and sharing information on an architect is the Perry Maxwell Archive created by Ed Oden.  If we had such a resource for other major architects, where information was sourced and shared, we'd all be much better off.  I recognize it takes years to find, catalogue, and ultimately share such information, but the intent and spirit of the Maxwell project is the ideal.

HOME | Mysite

There is no agenda here to promote or protect Maxwell's legacy.  Rather, the only goal is historical accuracy.  Which is why the PERRY MAXWELL ARCHIVE is factually based, with source materials included and without any interpretation other than clearly identified editorial comments intended to provide context to specific factual entries.  Historical knowledge is never static and inevitably evolves as new information is discovered.  Blind adherence to accepted truths is a recipe for misguidance and the PERRY MAXWELL ARCHIVE will be a failure if it ever ceases to be a work in progress.  Accordingly, new or contrary information is not only welcomed, but actively encouraged.  The hope is that others will contribute additional information that adds to the collective understanding of Perry Maxwell and the golf courses he touched.


Brian,


Thank you for sharing this example.  I agree that the Perry Maxwell Archive is the Gold Standard for sharing their attributions.  It is something we aspire to do in the future, but like you say it takes years to compile, catalogue and eventually present this data to the public. We are still in the compiling and cataloguing stage, so we appreciate your understanding and patience while we prepare the data for presentation.


Bret

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2024, 10:15:14 AM »
In my opinion, the gold standard for amateur historians gathering, researching, and sharing information on an architect is the Perry Maxwell Archive created by Ed Oden.  If we had such a resource for other major architects, where information was sourced and shared, we'd all be much better off.  I recognize it takes years to find, catalogue, and ultimately share such information, but the intent and spirit of the Maxwell project is the ideal.

HOME | Mysite

There is no agenda here to promote or protect Maxwell's legacy.  Rather, the only goal is historical accuracy.  Which is why the PERRY MAXWELL ARCHIVE is factually based, with source materials included and without any interpretation other than clearly identified editorial comments intended to provide context to specific factual entries.  Historical knowledge is never static and inevitably evolves as new information is discovered.  Blind adherence to accepted truths is a recipe for misguidance and the PERRY MAXWELL ARCHIVE will be a failure if it ever ceases to be a work in progress.  Accordingly, new or contrary information is not only welcomed, but actively encouraged.  The hope is that others will contribute additional information that adds to the collective understanding of Perry Maxwell and the golf courses he touched.

Brian,

Thank you for sharing this example.  I agree that the Perry Maxwell Archive is the Gold Standard for sharing their attributions.  It is something we aspire to do in the future, but like you say it takes years to compile, catalogue and eventually present this data to the public. We are still in the compiling and cataloguing stage, so we appreciate your understanding and patience while we prepare the data for presentation.

Bret
GC architecture and history enthusiasts are deeply indebted to the folks that do the digging, verifying, and sharing. Thank you.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Will Thrasher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2024, 10:26:45 AM »



GC architecture and history enthusiasts are deeply indebted to the folks that do the digging, verifying, and sharing. Thank you.



Amen to that!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2024, 10:58:16 AM by Will Thrasher »
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2024, 10:44:18 AM »
Matt,


The whole reason this list is called “The Definitive List of Raynor Courses” is because of an old GCA thread.  Do not take it literally.  It’s not definitive.  It’s ever-changing, with updates and corrections.  If you read the first post and replies 87 and 88 you will get a sense of how this list got started.  There was a request for a better list.  Anthony raised his hand and took the job.  Anthony had already been working on Raynor research for 15-20 years prior so it only made sense that he would be the right guy for the job.  The initial request was for a list.  That’s all anyone ever wanted until October 2024.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54531.0.html


Once October 2024 rolled around the list was no longer enough and now demands were being made to improve it with citations. These requests have now been heard and we are going to work on improving our list over the winter months.  Please check back for an updated list in the Spring of 2025.  Thank you for your understanding and patience. 


Bret




Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2024, 05:13:04 PM »
Thank you for sharing this example.  I agree that the Perry Maxwell Archive is the Gold Standard for sharing their attributions.  It is something we aspire to do in the future, but like you say it takes years to compile, catalogue and eventually present this data to the public. We are still in the compiling and cataloguing stage, so we appreciate your understanding and patience while we prepare the data for presentation.

Bret
GC architecture and history enthusiasts are deeply indebted to the folks that do the digging, verifying, and sharing. Thank you.
Once October 2024 rolled around the list was no longer enough and now demands were being made to improve it with citations. These requests have now been heard and we are going to work on improving our list over the winter months.  Please check back for an updated list in the Spring of 2025.  Thank you for your understanding and patience. 
I want to echo the sense of thanks and good will. I deeply appreciate all the work folks are doing out there. It's certainly hard work, and I feel like we've been given some many amazing resources, and I want to recognize that.
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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2024, 06:25:47 PM »
Thank you for sharing this example.  I agree that the Perry Maxwell Archive is the Gold Standard for sharing their attributions.  It is something we aspire to do in the future, but like you say it takes years to compile, catalogue and eventually present this data to the public. We are still in the compiling and cataloguing stage, so we appreciate your understanding and patience while we prepare the data for presentation.

Bret
GC architecture and history enthusiasts are deeply indebted to the folks that do the digging, verifying, and sharing. Thank you.
Once October 2024 rolled around the list was no longer enough and now demands were being made to improve it with citations. These requests have now been heard and we are going to work on improving our list over the winter months.  Please check back for an updated list in the Spring of 2025.  Thank you for your understanding and patience. 
I want to echo the sense of thanks and good will. I deeply appreciate all the work folks are doing out there. It's certainly hard work, and I feel like we've been given some many amazing resources, and I want to recognize that.


Matt,


There are a lot of “I”s in that sentence as if any of the people on this thread who have done all of the hard work should be grateful for your blessing. I (we all get) that you have a degree in Philosophy. I have a degree in History. I was quite privileged to study under one of the greatest American historians ever (Edmund Morgan, to save you the AI search). However, neither of those facts makes me an historian nor an expert. One thing that I retain 45 years later is that finding, digging through, and evaluating original sources is what gets closest to the Truth which is what those on this chain and others have done with great skill and patience.  I am a fan of Wikis and also the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (which I predict you will offer your take on). But at the end of the day, it is the painstaking research that gets closest to the answer.


I do enjoy and learn from your posts so I am not trying to discourage, just trying to provide some context.


Ira

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Raynor Map
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2024, 06:39:44 PM »
If I am inarticulate, then I am inarticulate. I'm just trying to add, after a lengthy and arguably tense discussion on the subject, that I very much appreciate the folks actually doing the work.
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