[Tommy Williamsen]

It seems most of us on this site grow weary of perfectly manicured, lush, green courses, where every lie is perfect.  I rember growing up on military courses where hard pan was a constant threat.  I practiced picking them of the ground flopping them by hitting them a little fat, bumping them with a five iron or three wood etc.  Now whenever I play in a tournament hard pan is most always eliminated.  It is simply marked as GUR.  I would like to see the  return of hard pan.  I'm not ready to picket for it but sometimes it is rub of the green and sometimes we just hit a bad shot that deserves a little punishment.  Any other hard pan lovers out there?

[Don_Mahaffey]

You want hard pan? Come to west Texas.
I grew up on low end desert courses, I'll take hard pan over a lie in long grass any time.

[blasbe1]

I grew up needing that shot, in part b/c the course I played most of my golf on had no irrigation in a lot of the primary rough.  While it was easly to blade one over the green a good hard pan shot was rewarded with a one hop and stop action.  Fun.  I don't have that shot in my bag anymore and suffered in a recent trip to Bandon.  

Both Bandon and Pacific Dunes had areas of hard pan (or just really hard turf) around the greens and I suffered.  For instance, I doubled the short 6th at Pacific by hitting driver and leaving an awkward 20 yd (up hill) pitch that I misjudged and sent over the right side of the green.  I then proceeded to blade a wedge back over the green and failed to get up and down.  I used the putter a lot more after that.

I'm not advocating hard pan, but rather areas of hard turf that forces the player to think about the shot more and if you try to take it high you'd better execute it perfectly.

Turn off the sprinklers!  
   

[ChipOat]

One of the "distinctive" characteristics of the Rockaway Hunting Club used to be the thatch/hardpan that was most places that rough "should" have been.

IMO, it made the golf course more difficult/better as 1) ball striking is more problematic off hardpan and 2) errant shots (especially tee balls) would often roll quite a long way into really nasty trouble.  It was the ultimate in "firm and fast".

The main criticism of it (mostly from non-members) was that the golf course looked "ugly" and "too muni".  That was not an inaccurate evaluation relative to most American golfers' tastes in these matters.

In order to attract both new (good) members and more (good) corporate outings (both essential - to be sure), most of the hardpan has been "fixed" with standard long-grass rough in the last 10 years.  The result, despite a challenging environment somewhat unique to RHC, is that 1) the quality of the membership has never been better, 2) the demand for weekday corporate events is much improved and 3) the course plays somewhat easier than in years gone by.

In this case, the club needed to make an architectural concession in order to maintain its standards for the future.  It was the right decision.

[blasbe1]

Chipoat:

If the fairways are still firm (which depends on rainfall) I imagine that the course can still play as difficult, or even more so, with balls running through the fairway into the rough.  We too suffer from a "need for green" but if our superintendents' master the balance between green enough and firm enough both tracts should play firm and fast, subject only to mother nature of course.

JKB

[Jim Franklin]

I love the hard pan stuff. I hit a 210 yard sand wedge at Carnoustie off the hard pan. Too bad the shot needed was only 110 yards . But seriously, I like the options that a hard pan lie will present. Turning off the water some is a good start.

[Jim Franklin]

I got up and down for par at Carnoustie if anyony was interested.

[ChipOat]

blasbe1:

Not in my opinion.  Balls don't roll into "penalty stroke places" anymore.

[stovepipe]

Hard pan.
            That reminds me of the British Opens of the 60's & 70's.  
Those were realy great days, i think we should return to those hard pan day's.

It some how doesn't seem right hitting a long Iron into a Links green and see'ing the ball spin back, there's no bump and run anymore.  .

I wonder if the modern pro could play a good bump and run shot as good as Trevino? Probably not.

[blasbe1]

chipoat:

By "penalty stroke areas" do you mean the bay or a channel?  If that's the case I understand and would agree.  

[Matthew Schulte]

I think we need to define the difference between firm and fast playing conditions, and hard pan.  To me firm and fast is still healthy living grass, but not necessarily lush green grass.  The preference of this group, myself included.  Hardpan on the other hand are areas where vegetation no longer grows, usually due to drought.  Also fine, depending on its location and how it affects the length of a hole.  Was the hole/course intended to have balls rollout as they usually do on hardpan?  If not, than that is not good maintenance meld.

Speaking of disappointing maintenance meld, I played the Gailes course at Lakewood shores and really enjoyed the layout, however, they were absolutely drenching the place with their irrigation system.  That course would be infinately better and truly worth the effort to get their if they achieved firm and fast conditions.

[ChipOat]

blasbe1:

bay, channel, bullrushes, honeysuckle/assorted grunch and OB - depending on the hole.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Odessa Country Club, West Texas, I am sure Don M. knows the conditions.  Hardpan galore off the fairways.  Every fairway is lined with trees that have the tree trunkc painted white, so you could have a hard pan lie, caliche, have to get the ball up high quickly, and then set it back down on a narrow green with a deep bunker in front.  I am thinking of hole #3.  Great dormant bermuda fairways in winter.  Never heard of overseeding when I grew up there but the dormant bermuda was great to play off of.  

[JohnV]

Now whenever I play in a tournament hard pan is most always eliminated.  It is simply marked as GUR.

Tom, you must play in some tournaments that are being marked by real wusses.  The only time I'd mark hard-pan as GUR is if it was in the fairway or was right at the end of cart paths that started by the greens and was due to the cart traffic.  If it is off the fairway , players play from it in our events.

[A_Clay_Man]

One of the great strategic uses of hardpan I have played was the Riverside in Morgan Hill, ca. It was a treat to play away from the middle and the results, if successful, seemed ungodly long back then.

TommyW- I can appreciate a imperfect lie but as whether I'd prefer it, that's another story. TSN, and WIld Horse had the surfaces pristine and playable for all types of assaults, everywhere.

[Tommy Williamsen]

As I was rethinking the larger ramifications of why I started this thread, I decided it had to do with the use of rough.  We almost always associate rough with high grass be it cut or uncut.  I always thought of it a "rough to hit out of area" that penalized a poorly struck shot.  It could be hard pan, softish dirt, or a ball sitting in front of a clump of grass.  I just get tired of having only one or two options in the tall grass, be it for a full shot to the green or recovery shot around the green.  How to get the membership to accept this is another question.

[Steve Lang]

 

rough indeed..  

[ChipOat]

Tommy W:

See my post about RHC as to why memberships really can't afford to accept the look - even if they wanted to (which they almost always don't).

Even those links-like courses that are really going back to "hard and fast" don't want their rough to look "muni".

They don't want pull carts, either.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Chipoat,
Of course your argument makes sense.  Very few clubs want to look as though they can't afford to keep the course pristine.  I even like the look.  The exception is Musgrove Mill, which like Pine Valley has an unkempt look.  Musgrove has one of the most talented greens superintendants around.  His bent greens (in S.C.) are some of the best greens I have ever played.  The fairways are hard and fast Bermuda that are cut to the nubs.  Yet off the fairways and around the greens the player better be creative, or bogery or worse will be the result.  I go away from MM with a better short game then the one I came with.  
In my exerience GolfClubs have members who understand and appreciate the game in a different way than most country club players.  For instance, CC need to look pretty.  They haave flowers all over the place that do nothing for the course.  Not many "Golf" clubs find the need to beautify or decorate tees etc with a flower bed.  My country club has a full time horticulturalist whose only job is to make the shrubbery and flower beds beautiful.  I belong to two Golf Clubs and while they have flowers by the club house there are none on the course.  While my Country deplores bad lies my golf clubs understand them as a rub of the green.
 
Even a place as elite as San Francisco GC has unkempt areas that challenge the player.

Do I like the look of a course that has rough areas that include hard pan etc.  Not really.  But I do appreciate the challenge it presents to me as a golfer.  

[ChipOat]

tommy w:

The locations of the unkempt look at Pine Valley are, in fact, hazards.

What little rough there is a PV hasn't an ounce of thatch/hardpan that I've ever seen.

A few sandy cart/maintenance paths - yes.  But a "muni" look anywhere at Pine Valley?  I'd need to be shown it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Chipoat,
 At Musgrove most of the sandy areas are waste areas where the player can ground a club.  In essence it is "rough."  The same is true for many of the places at Pine Valley, at least accordng to my friend and host.  It sure feels like a hazard, I'll grant you.  

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