How would YOU open an Affordable, Worthwhile Course?

[Simon Barrington]

"Sean:
...
5.  The bunker sand blows around in Bandon more than it does at St. Patrick's, because I understood the problem better, so St. Patrick's spends less chasing sand back into the bunkers."

"...It’s interesting you cite bunker sand retention. Do you think some of these clubs that are moving away from pot bunkers are in for a harsh surprise?
...Ciao"

Sean/Tom, this is a really fascinating sub-topic, and perhaps a great one for its own thread?

I had heard/read that one of HS Colt's key considerations when remodelling Hoylake c.1920 was the orientation of the hazards related to the prevailing wind, he would orientate them perpendicular to that direction (especially if longer shapes) so that the wind would not be channelled along them and then blowing sand out at the other end.

So would love to hear more thoughts about this subject; it is one where people have strong opinions, so more understanding and information would be very welcome


Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Expectations…seems to me a common reason I hear for folks not rating or thinking St Pat’s is as good as many of the other Irish big guns is lower than expected course conditions. I sense that as more people get into ranking lists that course conditions of GB&I courses is being considered more important by members and visitors.

Well, yes, we don't have 50-100 years of maturity yet.  That's especially hard to develop overnight in a place with slow-growing fescue fairways, a short growing season, and limited irrigation; it will really take 5-10 years to get there [and we are closing in on five].  But we are being wary of the mistake that a lot of other new courses in GB & I have made, that "pushed" the turf too early.

[Sean_A]

Expectations…seems to me a common reason I hear for folks not rating or thinking St Pat’s is as good as many of the other Irish big guns is lower than expected course conditions. I sense that as more people get into ranking lists that course conditions of GB&I courses is being considered more important by members and visitors.

Well, yes, we don't have 50-100 years of maturity yet.  That's especially hard to develop overnight in a place with slow-growing fescue fairways, a short growing season, and limited irrigation; it will really take 5-10 years to get there [and we are closing in on five].  But we are being wary of the mistake that a lot of other new courses in GB & I have made, that "pushed" the turf too early.

It’s very odd. I have heard stories about the conditions and stories just as you describe. I certainly didn’t note anything like serious condition issues when I was there. Its hard to know if the conditions have suffered badly now and again or if people don’t have a clue.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Its an interesting one Sean,

Bandon actually receives nearly twice as much rain as the national average at 58 inches per year, vs 30.

But they get 62% of that moisture in the cool winter months (Nov-Feb), vs only 7% in the warmer summer months (June-Sept).

By comparison even Seattle gets far less than Bandon at 40 inches per year.

https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/bandon/oregon/united-states/usor0023

[Craig Sweet]

Kalen, as you know, over here in Montana we receive under 14 inches of precip. with most coming in winter and May and June.  Low humidity, high winds, and temps. in the 90's-100 are not uncommon in July, August and September.   Irrigation is a balance between too much water and just enough to keep the grass viable.


If I were to build a nine holer I'd have a single line of irrigation down the middle of each fairway and around greens....quick couplers at greens and tees....Mow greens everyday, tees and fairways two or three times a week.....change cups and tee markers everyday depending on traffic.

[Mike_Young]

Perhaps Mike Young will see this and chip in. I'd be interested to hear 1) whether he thinks they could build and sustain The Fields today in 2024 and 2) about his new course currently in planning in Vidalia, Georgia (a very rare species: a new municipal course on virgin land).

Brian,I think I have a podcast coming on Fried Egg soon about this very topic.  Not sure when but we have taped it.I think most of us believe in the free enterprise system and if we do we understand that it only works when a profit can be made.  The industry of golf has abused the game of golf to the point where the person who owns the 4.25 inch cup has a difficult time surviving but so many do.  Think about this...last year 530 million rounds were played.  If we just assume that a site like this mainly focuses on the top 500 courses in the USA and we assume that those types of courses average 20,000 rounds then we are only talking about 10 million rounds.  Yet somehow the golf courses in America are accommodating 520 million more rounds that are never discussed.  The sad thing is the USGA or the industry could care less about those courses.  We have approx 2300 private courses and the other 13,000 are muni and private owner public types.We all can find a good affordable car to fit our individual budgets because the auto industry knows it has to provide such to the public if they expect to keep their assembly line producing.  But when it comes to an industry as small as golf we get basically one model greensmower or sprayer etc and bottom of the barrel course or top of the heap course buys the same basic mower.  Same for irrigation.  Supts are never taught in college to make a profit...they are taught to work toward jobs with bigger and bigger budgets.  It's a weird industry.  BUT...there are a lot of people owning courses out there who know how to get it to work but they have nothing to gain by telling others. AND YES..I think myself or you or someone who knows can build such a course where it works today... There has to be a day when all of the courses who can afford the jacked up redos are done and the industry has to address the other 520 million rounds and where they are played...  if you want to study a good example of the industry pushing something down the throats then study the lithium battery golf car...a leased golf car was around $75 per month just  a year ago.  Lithium is being pushed and cost around $140 per month... cart fees are going up quickly...
You mention Warmouth...politics got in the way for about a year but we are back on line now.  We had to move off of much of the sand base and we now have a few wetland areas which will actually be nice holes.  Warmouth is being built solely due to the fact hat the young politicians saw what an economic engine golf could be for the area as they watched the planes land each day bringing people to Ohoopee Match Club.  They realized people who would never see this part of the world were coming.  The section of I-16 from Statesboro down Midland, Ga on I-95 is the fastest growing industrial sector in the country due to the Hyundai EV plant and subsidiaries etc. And there is a housing shortage.. A few years ago I took the mayor to see the WinterPark 9 and to talk with the mayor there.  We went about building with the same scenario and found the money based on economic development...The course will be good and interesting but bunkers will be minimal, very good irrigation, paths at tees and greens, ground driven fairway units with one height of cut ,with focus on green complexes and tees.  Honestly it may be hard to find supts who are even interested in such a product.  I'm not sure. 

[AChao]

First things that come to mind for me would be 1) inexpensive land, hopefully mostly sand and not clay, 2) accessible and inexpensive water, and 3) diversified nearby middle-class demographic that is large enough to support the course.

[Kyle Harris]

So much of the cost of a new build is driven by the need to have it “just so” on opening day.


So my response here is “18 stakes on a Sunday Afternoon”.


Offset the cost of the first point by spending it in time. Those guys that did the “some guy’s back yard thing” are the model.

[Tim_Weiman]

Expectations…seems to me a common reason I hear for folks not rating or thinking St Pat’s is as good as many of the other Irish big guns is lower than expected course conditions. I sense that as more people get into ranking lists that course conditions of GB&I courses is being considered more important by members and visitors.

Well, yes, we don't have 50-100 years of maturity yet.  That's especially hard to develop overnight in a place with slow-growing fescue fairways, a short growing season, and limited irrigation; it will really take 5-10 years to get there [and we are closing in on five].  But we are being wary of the mistake that a lot of other new courses in GB & I have made, that "pushed" the turf too early.

It’s very odd. I have heard stories about the conditions and stories just as you describe. I certainly didn’t note anything like serious condition issues when I was there. Its hard to know if the conditions have suffered badly now and again or if people don’t have a clue.

Ciao

Sean,


IMO, people who don’t rate St Patrick’s high don’t have clue. It’s awesome.

[Mike_Young]

here is a new Fried Egg podcast we did couple of weeks ago...it may answer some questions...  https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/how-to-build-a-profitable-mom-and-pop-golf-course-3/

[Matt Schoolfield]

here is a new Fried Egg podcast we did couple of weeks ago...it may answer some questions...  https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/how-to-build-a-profitable-mom-and-pop-golf-course-3/

Fantastic interview. Listened to it right when it was released. I thought you were extremely effective at explaining the trade offs involved.

[Philippe Binette]

Some design elements would lower construction and maintenance costs;


1_ Shorter course less than 6100 yards = less acreage and faster rounds
2_ Aim for 5 or 6 par three = less fairway acreage
3_ 3 tee boxes
4_ no mowing between the back tee and the fairway, but you can basically play the course with a putter from the forward tee..
5_ bunkers yes, not too many but small in size, no sandpro... they cause more damage than maintenance. bunkers can be maintained with a 3 minutes quick handrake. 


6_ allow space for 5 x 4-units condos built along the existing road along the course. no infrastructure to built and will generate funds for the course
7_ small clubhouse near the first tee, more like a café with light lunch instead of a full restaurant... make it a nice coffee spot so non-golfer stop and enjoy the terrasse. clubhouse can be run be 2 employees, not 10 !!

[BCrosby]

Mike's podcast with Garrett Morrison on the Fried Egg is highly recommended.


He makes the case that high maintenance costs are a choice, not a necessity.


Bob

[jeffwarne]

Mike's podcast with Garrett Morrison on the Fried Egg is highly recommended.


He makes the case that high maintenance costs are a choice, not a necessity.


Bob

That often create "worse" conditions in terms of playability.
Lightning fast greens take longer to play(for those who putt out) and reduce available pins.
I never saw chipping yips when fairways were cut at 1/2 inch.Now I see them daily.
Longer fairways can be kept firmer without fear of losing them-equals more bounce. (firm is the important part of firm and fast when dealing with fairways)
Also, the tighter the fairway cut, the more player HAS to take a divot to use the center of the club. Longer fairways allow many players to brush the grass without a divot..And give them a chance to put club on ball. Also, a slightly longer fairway, in addition to creating less need for divots, spreads the divots more by allowing a ball to settle on a slope rather than gathering in small flat areas once they find an absence of gravity-i.e. less divot farms.


Every course(except the high end American owned resorts) I played in New Zealand had a second cup in the green for easy rotation rather than cutting(and painting) a new cup when making a hole location change.
Bunkers-provide quality rakes and demand they be used by players. Biggest abuse I see these days is the guy who says "they're going to rake it in the morning tomorrow" aaarghh.
8 sets of tees for the majority of golfers makes no sense-two-three tee boxes(assuming it's enough turf to rotate) can do the trick with some use of the imagination.

[Ben Hollerbach]

-

[MClutterbuck]

Kalen, as you know, over here in Montana we receive under 14 inches of precip. with most coming in winter and May and June.  Low humidity, high winds, and temps. in the 90's-100 are not uncommon in July, August and September.   Irrigation is a balance between too much water and just enough to keep the grass viable.


If I were to build a nine holer I'd have a single line of irrigation down the middle of each fairway and around greens....quick couplers at greens and tees....Mow greens everyday, tees and fairways two or three times a week.....change cups and tee markers everyday depending on traffic.

The single line of irrigation might be more expensive to run than a higher coverage system. Of course your capital cost will be lower, but single line is quite inefficient in delivering the minimum amount of water to all maintained areas. You will no doubt over irrigate the center and under irrigate the corners... worth thinking about water costs plus labor costs of folks using hoses to reach areas you need water in and the single line does not get to.

[Sean_A]

Mike's podcast with Garrett Morrison on the Fried Egg is highly recommended.


He makes the case that high maintenance costs are a choice, not a necessity.


Bob

Well, that’s obvious.

I agree with Jeff about fairway heights. Played RND a few days ago and it seems to have joined the list of clubs that practically scalp their fairways….not good.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some design elements would lower construction and maintenance costs;


1_ Shorter course less than 6100 yards = less acreage and faster rounds
2_ Aim for 5 or 6 par three = less fairway acreage
3_ 3 tee boxes
4_ no mowing between the back tee and the fairway, but you can basically play the course with a putter from the forward tee..
5_ bunkers yes, not too many but small in size, no sandpro... they cause more damage than maintenance. bunkers can be maintained with a 3 minutes quick handrake. 


6_ allow space for 5 x 4-units condos built along the existing road along the course. no infrastructure to built and will generate funds for the course
7_ small clubhouse near the first tee, more like a café with light lunch instead of a full restaurant... make it a nice coffee spot so non-golfer stop and enjoy the terrasse. clubhouse can be run be 2 employees, not 10 !!

All the better points on how to do it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kalen, as you know, over here in Montana we receive under 14 inches of precip. with most coming in winter and May and June.  Low humidity, high winds, and temps. in the 90's-100 are not uncommon in July, August and September.   Irrigation is a balance between too much water and just enough to keep the grass viable.


If I were to build a nine holer I'd have a single line of irrigation down the middle of each fairway and around greens....quick couplers at greens and tees....Mow greens everyday, tees and fairways two or three times a week.....change cups and tee markers everyday depending on traffic.

The single line of irrigation might be more expensive to run than a higher coverage system. Of course your capital cost will be lower, but single line is quite inefficient in delivering the minimum amount of water to all maintained areas. You will no doubt over irrigate the center and under irrigate the corners... worth thinking about water costs plus labor costs of folks using hoses to reach areas you need water in and the single line does not get to.

I have done this but from a UK perspective you a better off with just running a main down the side of each fairway with coupling points at say 80Metre intervals, that way you water what needs watering plus its cheaper. Not so good for grow in though.