Obviously the kind of grass matters.

[mike_malone]

Maybe something we haven’t talked to death is the impact of the type of grass and the architecture. Riviera is an example.

[Ira Fishman]

Yes we have, especially on the greens. But still a worthwhile topic.


Ira

[mike_malone]

Yes we have, especially on the greens. But still a worthwhile topic.


Ira

Riviera shows that the grass that isn’t putting surface matters. I thought of the topic after a shot from the rough came up short of the green.

[Wayne_Kozun]

What kind of grass do they have at Riviera?  I don't think the announcers have mentioned it even once during the telecast.   

[mike_malone]

What kind of grass do they have at Riviera?  I don't think the announcers have mentioned it even once during the telecast.   

True!


But it is different.


I want to know more about fescue to be honest. I always find playing in the UK to be quite different from the poa annua around Philly.

[Adam Lawrence]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

[Pete Lavallee]

Here are my observations on Kikuyu:


Originally imported for the polo field at Riviera it has spread to almost every golf course in So. Cal. Of course these were all started with Bermuda grass and those who can afford the time and effort to keep the Kikuyu out do so. Although it provides a great surface to hit off it can lead to shots that stop dead in their tracks short of the green. I believe this is why the USGA has been hesitant to bring the US Open to Riviera; they’ve stated that they don’t want a course where you can’t bounce a ball onto the green. Why then did Torrey Pines get two US Opens? When Rees did the redesign in 2001 he basically just redid the greens. In order to tie them in to the untouched fairways they planted rye grass; hence the open fronts allow golfers to bounce their balls into the greens. Torrey is also unusual in that they do an aggressive dethatching in November and then overseed with rye grass. So the surface you see at the Farmers is very unlike what you see at the Genesis.


My home course Coronado GC has wall to wall Kikuyu which thrives on the sand base dredged up from the harbor in 1956. They never dethatch or overseed which makes for a fluffy surface that’s ideal for a muni that gets over 90,000 rounds a year. The approaches to the greens are maintained to allow shots to be bounced in, so that proves that it can be done.


Strangely enough Kikuyu doesn’t take cart traffic well. Coronado gets at least 50% walkers as it flat as a pancake and that helps us tremendously. We don’t have continuous cart paths, just ones around tees and greens. In the run up to the US Open, Torrey restricted carts to the continuous paths for 6 months and those fairways were pure and perfect. Within a couple of months after the event they had declined severely just due to cart traffic.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Now with relaxed laws nationwide, GCAs should embrace the Carl Spackler "Hybrid" strain of A) Kentucky Blue Grass "featherbed-bent"+ B) Northern California Sinsemilla.


It's a little harsh though....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-TzNdhLtZ0

[John Chilver-Stainer]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

Well said Adam, I couldn't agree more, the best and most consistent putting surface thanks to the leaf form, the firmness of the turf, it's lignaeus roots which support foot and wheel loads and it's ability to survive dry conditions thus avoiding over moisturising of the playing surfaces.


From your recent experience can you name the golf clubs with the best fescue greens last year please.

[MClutterbuck]

Here are my observations on Kikuyu:


Originally imported for the polo field at Riviera it has spread to almost every golf course in So. Cal. Of course these were all started with Bermuda grass and those who can afford the time and effort to keep the Kikuyu out do so. Although it provides a great surface to hit off it can lead to shots that stop dead in their tracks short of the green. I believe this is why the USGA has been hesitant to bring the US Open to Riviera; they’ve stated that they don’t want a course where you can’t bounce a ball onto the green. Why then did Torrey Pines get two US Opens? When Rees did the redesign in 2001 he basically just redid the greens. In order to tie them in to the untouched fairways they planted rye grass; hence the open fronts allow golfers to bounce their balls into the greens. Torrey is also unusual in that they do an aggressive dethatching in November and then overseed with rye grass. So the surface you see at the Farmers is very unlike what you see at the Genesis.


My home course Coronado GC has wall to wall Kikuyu which thrives on the sand base dredged up from the harbor in 1956. They never dethatch or overseed which makes for a fluffy surface that’s ideal for a muni that gets over 90,000 rounds a year. The approaches to the greens are maintained to allow shots to be bounced in, so that proves that it can be done.


Strangely enough Kikuyu doesn’t take cart traffic well. Coronado gets at least 50% walkers as it flat as a pancake and that helps us tremendously. We don’t have continuous cart paths, just ones around tees and greens. In the run up to the US Open, Torrey restricted carts to the continuous paths for 6 months and those fairways were pure and perfect. Within a couple of months after the event they had declined severely just due to cart traffic.

Pete,


Why would you import Kikuyu for a polo field? That is dead wrong. For polo, back in the days, you would go with Cynodon Dactylon (common bermuda), or in colder climates, Poa Pratensis (kentucky bluegrass), maybe with some Rye and/or Fescue thrown in. Now you would use some hybrids of the above.


It seems they made a horrible mistake that impacted two sports negatively...

BTW, loved Riviera!

MC


 


 

[Matt Schoolfield]

The course where I play is Kikuyu and I'll just add this. It's fine when it's dormant, it's fine when it's short, and it's fine when the green speeds are slower to match running approach speeds. Yet, all of these situations where Kikuyu fine obviously break the rules of how golf should be for many, and even more so in the professional world. If you can get past the green-grass fast-greens thick-rough mindset, Kikuyu is fine to play on.

The only thing that can be a chore is trying to be extra mindful of cleaning my shoes well when heading to another course.

[Jeff Segol]

I posted a similar threat to this maybe a year ago, asking the GCAs how the type of grass they expect to use on a site influences what they do with the design. My home course when I started playing seriously (Los Robles Greens in Thousand Oaks, Baldock) was mostly kikuyu. Basically, that encourages bomb and gouge. You try the get the ball as close to the green as you can, then flip a lob wedge. Also, kikuyu really means you have to play an aerial game, because the ball doesn't run. The hardest part was when I moved back to the Bay Area and started playing on courses with tighter lies. It took awhile to adjust to needing to hit down an through, rather than just skimming the iron shots.

[John Emerson]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

We need to clarify something for everyone first. "Fine fescue" is not a species of grass. It is a term used to label 5 species of grasses that are essentially indistinguishable from one another without looking at the root structure or seed head. Sheep's fescue, slender creeping red fescue, strong creeping red fescue, hard fescue, and chewings fescue are all fine fescues.
I agree that they provide the best surface for golf, but they are extremely limited in their range. The links course spend big money on seed and sod as they typically lose grass in many places every year. There are only a handful of locations in the USA that can successfully grow the fine fescues so it's not this wonder grass that will solve our problems. In it's current state, the fine fescues are a poor choice for the vast majority of the USA due to the way golf is played and surfaces are managed here.

[Sean_A]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

The ball not sitting up on fescue is mitigated with higher grass heights. These days, links fairways are cut too short.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The height sheep nibble grass to is the ideal height for fairways.
Atb

[Jeff_Mingay]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

I haven't been everywhere, but I'm yet to see fescue do well where carts are prevalent. It'll be interesting to see what happens at Comporta. I've been there. It's a beautiful development.

[Niall C]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

The ball not sitting up on fescue is mitigated with higher grass heights. These days, links fairways are cut too short.

Ciao

I'm not sure I agree with the last comment re height of cut but I will say that often there is no hardship in going into the semi rough, particularly when you want to play a wood/hybrid/long iron.


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

The ball not sitting up on fescue is mitigated with higher grass heights. These days, links fairways are cut too short.

Ciao

I'm not sure I agree with the last comment re height of cut but I will say that often there is no hardship in going into the semi rough, particularly when you want to play a wood/hybrid/long iron.


Niall

I'm with the desire to get back to higher cuts. 
More hanging lies, thus less collection points scarred by divots. And less suplementary irigation required, leading to firmer surfaces.

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm with the desire to get back to higher cuts. 
More hanging lies, thus less collection points scarred by divots. And less supplementary irrigation required, leading to firmer surfaces.

Seconded

[Sean_A]

There's no doubt in my mind that fescue is flat out the best grass on which to play golf. It has the finest blades, it produces the firmest surface, it demands less water and fertiliser, making it the most sustainable option; in fact, it almost demands sustainable greenkeeping, because anything else will promote weed grasses at the expense of the fescue. And it will grow in a lot more locations than people think -- David Kidd, for example, planted fescue at his superb new course at Comporta in Portugal, and it has done very well, though it isn't as lean -- yet -- as you would ideally want it.

But there are a lot of issues with fescue. You simply cannot push it with additional inputs -- it will just get outcompeted by other, more aggressive grasses -- so it is slow to establish, which puts a lot of pressure on greenkeeping teams when the owners/golfers are expecting a new, or regrassed course to be in tip-top condition. It doesn't have the uniform dark green colour that so many golfers associate with good conditioning, and when it gets hot in the summer, it goes dormant and brown -- personally I love the look of a tawny dormant links, but I know lots don't). Cart traffic on fescue is an issue (at the aforementioned Comporta, which is for almost everyone a cart course, the aforementioned David Kidd told me that he believes fescue, maintained correctly, can take cart traffic, especially as there will be less play in the summer, when the grass is at its most stressed; only time will tell if he is correct). The ball does not sit up on a fescue sward in the way it does on other, denser grasses: this promotes good ball striking, but players who are used to sweeping off a green carpet may find this tricky.

The ball not sitting up on fescue is mitigated with higher grass heights. These days, links fairways are cut too short.

Ciao

I'm not sure I agree with the last comment re height of cut but I will say that often there is no hardship in going into the semi rough, particularly when you want to play a wood/hybrid/long iron.

Niall

I'm with the desire to get back to higher cuts. 
More hanging lies, thus less collection points scarred by divots. And less suplementary irigation required, leading to firmer surfaces.

I guess once good players are nervous to pull out a wedge near the green then fairways are too low. Totally unnecessary. More money for less choice. Stupid.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Oh for the days of unirrigated golf.
Bare lies and hardpan.
Irons and pitching wedges with traditional lofts, sharp leading edges, thin flanges and no bounce.
Skill in the hands and between the ears.
Atb

[Chris Mavros]

Has Trinity Zoysia been used any where else in addition to Trinity Forest?  It's a hybrid, shallow root Zoysia invented to replicate the effects of fescue.  I believe the Grove is using it for their greens and tees but not sure where else.   

[Matt Schoolfield]

Has Trinity Zoysia been used any where else in addition to Trinity Forest?  It's a hybrid, shallow root Zoysia invented to replicate the effects of fescue.  I believe the Grove is using it for their greens and tees but not sure where else.

Butler Pitch & Putt in Austin switched to Trinity Zoysia after the management changed. That's the only course I know of.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Has Trinity Zoysia been used any where else in addition to Trinity Forest?  It's a hybrid, shallow root Zoysia invented to replicate the effects of fescue.  I believe the Grove is using it for their greens and tees but not sure where else.

The Grove has Tifeagle greens, zeon zoysia everywhere other than tees.